What?! Psychic Surgery? Can It Really Help? Dr Scott M. Taubold Explains

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[Music]

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Hi and welcome to Author Conversations. I'm Chris Dabbs and, as usual, you're joining us to listen

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to an author talking about their work. Today we're talking to Dr Scott Taubold about

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the book The System of Healing Used by the Filipino Espiritistas. For people who

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don't know anything about this subject — and I have to say I'm probably one of those people —

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I'm completely fresh to it. What can you tell us about it? What exactly is this healing

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tradition, and how is it used and practised by the Filipino Espiritistas? Okay, well,

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Espiritista healing was originally called 'psychic surgery' because when

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Westerners went to the Philippines and observed their healing practices you know they didn't know

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what to call it. So this one fellow German came up with psychic surgery. So for a period of time

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in the 70s and into the 80s a lot of Westerners went there to experience this form of healing

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and they wrote popular books about it. There were a couple of films. Alex Orbito, I believe, came

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and met Shirley MacLaine. There were some celebrities who were aware of these

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Filipino Espiritistas, and it was kind of a popular fad type of healing thing there in the 70s and 80s,

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but you know it's really an amazing effective form of treatment that the Espiritistas do.

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That's quite amazing. Now, is this the thing where — I remember back then —

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there was lots of hullabaloo about it? I think there were lots of charlatans and lots of fake

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people who were practising and pretending to do psychic healing, or pretending to do some

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sort of healing without anaesthetic, or surgery without anaesthetic, or something like that. Is that what

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people were trying to do? Well, yes, that's true, but, you know, these

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Espiritistas — I mean, they're only human. I believe on some days their ability to do

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this kind of miraculous work may weaken a little, but therapeutic sleight of hand has been an

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accepted form of treatment since the shamans. You know, the shamans didn't have a lot of tools

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to cure people back in ancient times, but they did have therapeutic sleight of hand as a method of

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tricking people into getting well, is how I like to say it. So it's kind of like a placebo kind of

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thing going on. Exactly. Yeah, so in other words, the effect of having the treatment, right, or being treated.

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Mind-body medicine, yes. No, I like that. I'm very paranoid when I take drugs because I don't

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know whether or not I should be feeling them or not. Anyway, let's not go down that route, but yes.

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Okay, and I don't mean recreational drugs, right? I mean proper prescription drugs.

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But enough about me there. What first drew you personally to this world and

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ultimately made you think, 'Well, I need to write a book about this'? Was it a dissertation

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that you'd done, or was this a book that you just wanted to write? Yes, it's a dissertation, and

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and this will take some time to explain but I grew up in a very small community in northern California

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and I came from generations back my ancestors were early pioneers to California and I grew up in an

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area where they actually speak their own language dialect kind of thing and there's been

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area where they actually speak their own language — a dialect kind of thing. There have been

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dissertations done on that too. They call it Boontling, in Boonville, California. But anyway, I grew up

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differences until about in my mid-30s I went through a career change and I moved to Hawaii to go back

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to school well Hawaii is a melting pot of different cultures you know and and all of a sudden I was

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exposed to all these different cultures and because I worked and went to school in the area I

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learned what right away that I had to be aware of some of these cultural differences you know

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and anyway, I moved into a community that was mostly Filipino, and I fell in love with Filipino

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culture. By the time I married a Filipina and travelled to the Philippines, I became very

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interested in their mind-body medicine that they still practise so much over there, and that was

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my initial interest. As I studied Filipino faith healing, I was going to do a dissertation on it,

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and I ran into a professor named Stanley Krippner, who had been to the Philippines in the mid-70s

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and who had done some participant observation kind of research there and he encouraged me

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to do my dissertation on the Espiritista healing and I told him I said you know there's only been

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popular books written about it there's not a lot of journal articles scientific journal articles

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and he said that's okay he said if just whatever literature there is do a review on that

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of course he had contributed to the literature himself but funny that yeah but yeah so that's

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So that's kind of how I got started with the project. It's amazing. So you really had a kind of free

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rein there. If there wasn't a body of academic literature, you really could

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delve into all sorts of different popular culture and things like that. Yes, yes, it was a lot of fun, actually.

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Yeah. Right, okay. So then you actually went to the Philippines

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and you spent some time yourself observing? Well, yes. Actually, when I was living in

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Hawaii, a gentleman approached me. He had lived in Cebu City in the Philippines for a year

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and he said, 'There are cheap airfares right now. Why don't we go?' He said, 'You buy my ticket and I'll show

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you around. I'll make sure the taxi cab drivers don't rip you off, and I'll introduce you to

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some people I know.' So I went with him and he introduced me to Dolores, who was my future wife at that time.

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some people I know so I went with him and he introduced me to Dolores who was was my future wife at that time

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so I never really resided in the Philippines but I married a woman and we go back every couple of

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years to visit her family so I've spent quite a bit of time there and have that connection through

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family. So you have that connection through family. It sounds almost as though it's actually part of

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Philippine culture. Is it mainstream, or did you discover it's more

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fringe but equally powerful within the culture? Yes, it's fringe, but let me talk a little

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bit about the healthcare system in the Philippines and how that compares with the US. Now, in the

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Philippines like so many other countries in the world if a person starts having symptoms say that

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you know they wake up and they feel sick the first thing they do is they get the family

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expert you know the family elder person in the family who comes makes a diagnosis and may perform

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some small treatment or you know say drink more water or whatever tea different teas and herbal

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stuff and if the person doesn't respond well to that there's always a neighborhood healer a

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folk healer in and they don't charge a lot of money they do this by donation so you get some

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canned food or some stuff out of the pantry, and you go over to the local healer's house and see what

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they can do. If all else fails, you may go to the Western medical clinic and see a Western-trained

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doctor, and even then you might go back to the Filipino folk healer. But yes, I mean,

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it's affordable. That's the thing: you don't have to have insurance, you don't have the AMA.

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You have neighbourhood people who heal for the sake of healing and accept donations as payment.

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Well, exactly. That's what I was going to say, actually. You go to the Western medical

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world and then it costs money, right? But this way, I mean, you're talking

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about hundreds of years, and this is the way that we lived as human beings. We're going back

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— not backwards — but we're going back to how we used to be. In that case, I mean, I thought about

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you: if you grew up in rural Northern California, you probably had a similar system, right, where

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maybe you had a doctor nearby, but you probably went to someone — an elder who knew more

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about things than you did — in your past. That gives you that parallel to draw, perhaps.

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Yes. As far as the Espiritistas are concerned, how much of this healing tradition — I mean, we've

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skated over it very, very quickly — how much of this is specifically Filipino? I mean, in

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other words, how much has the country's history — because there's this Spanish history

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and all sorts of other history — and religion and culture added to

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this to create it, or was it there beforehand? Well, yes, and that's a good question because, you know,

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the indigenous people in the Philippines would go into trance oftentimes when they were doing

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healings it's kind of a shamanic tradition right and so the local healers you know they healed

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pretty well before we the westerners came but you know the Philippines it was interesting because

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they were they were under Spanish rule for 400 years you know I believe it was four centuries

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and and us too we we took over the Philippines during the Spanish-American war we liberated them

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from the Spanish and then again after World War II we liberated them from the Japanese but at

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any rate all this Catholic influence in the Philippines created well and in Brazil where you have

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the Catholic Church and indigenous populations they both South America Brazil and the Philippines came

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came up with these psychic surgeries, as Western people have deemed them. But, you know, they have

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spiritual, shamanic-trained healers who are then doing Christian Spiritism in the Philippines and

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secular Spiritism in Brazil, so that they could be more accepted. But even so, you know, the Catholic

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Church was resistant to the mediumship and the trance stuff, so they were still on the fringe, and

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my concern is that this practice will cease to exist if it's not encouraged

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but discouraged by Western culture. Well, okay. I think Western culture can endanger indigenous culture, really.

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There's a massive history of it, as you say — 400 years of colonising the Philippines. Obviously we're not here to

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debunk or prove it right now; we're having a conversation about your book. So, yes, I think

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it's quite an interesting thing. What did you witness or discover during your research

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that really surprised you and swayed you one way or another? I assume

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you went in there with some sort of idea. Did you prove your thesis or did you

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disprove it, or what happened? Well, the dissertation is what they call a descriptive dissertation,

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disprove it or what happened well the the dissertation is what they call a descriptive dissertation

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so I just described The System of Healing Used by the Filipino Espiritistas — that's the

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title but describing it you know it doesn't really get into what I have seen I've seen things that

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just cannot be explained through you know hard science what you have to say that at one point

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a healer had created a space where looking into it the only way I could describe it was as if looking

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into another dimension. It's funny because the first observers of psychic surgery, Ron Ormond and Ormond McGill,

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went back in the 50s to the Philippines and filmed a healer. That was the way they described it.

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They said, 'This guy is a fourth-dimensional surgeon.' I thought that was interesting, that they

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and I, many years apart, came up with the same description of what we saw.

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Explain that to me, because you're not talking about some sort of science-fiction time

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portal opening up and all that stuff, I think. Because then maybe we wouldn't need to debunk it or not,

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because it would be real, right, or something we could see and measure. So explain

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what you mean by that dimensional side of it. Well, yes, I mean, they explain it in

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in terms of a spiritual body you know the spiritual realm where they

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communicate with these discarnate entities Christian entities usually the Holy Spirit they say

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the Holy Spirit is doing the healing but you know we don't have the tools scientifically to

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prove or disprove anything, you know, and that's what makes this kind of

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area of interest so difficult because you know you can't really prove anything you can only

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describe, observe and do some calculations, but it's pretty limited as far as the scientific

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means to investigate this stuff. In terms of actually being the recipient of it,

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did you see anybody who had tangible benefits, and did any

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case studies reveal that for you? Yes, yes. I received treatment myself and had improved

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liver function show up on an MRI or ultrasound. You know, I mean, there is that,

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but there's a lot of conflicting evidence, with explanations for how it could happen. Yeah, it's

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just very difficult to really monitor. But, you know, I can tell you what I saw with my own

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eyes, my own observations, and that's good enough for me. And I hope the book is convincing about a lot

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of things too. Well, it sounds like it is. I mean, it sounds fascinating. Obviously,

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as someone who's used to thinking in terms of Western medicine, I tend to think

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almost entirely through this conventional lens. What do you hope

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the book encourages people to do? To think differently about, possibly, their

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own healing journeys? Without asking them basically to accept every single

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claim in your book, what do you want them to think? Well, yes, I'm hoping people will be more

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open to this type of healing. There are a lot of different healing methods all over the world,

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and I think one needs to be open-minded about what those are. And, of course, if you go to a

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Western-trained doctor, they'll tell you all the reasons why you shouldn't take herbal medication

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and all these alternatives, you know, but they're just a profit-generated system

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in a capitalist country. So, yeah. Yeah, which is really difficult. I'll give an example of this over here.

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I'm in the UK and I'm in London right now, and we have what we call the National Health Service.

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Treatment for those who qualify is pretty much free at the point of delivery.

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Okay, so what happens there is that, as far

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as the NHS is concerned, they do sometimes look at alternative remedies — for instance, acupuncture.

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We all kind of know acupuncture, don't we? Someone sticking needles in you,

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and it's supposed to work on nerve pathways and things. I'm no expert, but again, Chinese, right?

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Now, in the UK, where this NHS system works, they're not allowed to prescribe acupuncture because it

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costs too much, so they call it needling. Is that about right? And, you know, my wife had cancer and then

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was prescribed this needling, and she went in and said, 'This is acupuncture.' And the person said,

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'Yeah, but we can't call it that.' So, yes, this is what I'm really standing up for, as you say.

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I've already been talking about being profit-driven, really. I mean, it's a shame because maybe these things

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would help people. So have you seen health tourists, perhaps, who have benefited or gone

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over to try and benefit from Espiritista healing? Yes. I forgot you were located in the UK —

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the AMA being the American Medical Association — but it really isn't what I'm curious about all over the world.

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So no problem there. Yes, but anyway, in Germany and what we call Eastern Europe, I

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guess they're more open to these alternative forms of healing, such as psychic surgery.

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In fact, some doctors in Germany tell people who are in terminal stages of cancer,

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But some people are more accepting of it than others, right? So that's interesting.

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I wonder, is that more of a private kind of thing? I guess it is, isn't it? It's not state-

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funded medical treatment, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what else is there, then, really, that people

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can glean from your book? What are you hoping they'll walk away with — maybe thinking about

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things more, or perhaps changing their lives? Yes, well, you know, it's the whole cultural

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differences thing. Human beings have capacities to do things that would

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amaze most of us, I think, but we need to be open to it. We need to be aware that these

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practices exist, that a lot of people are saying they're effective. It broadens

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our worldview in general. And, of course, if it helps us at the same time, then it's not

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just about understanding the world, I guess. Yeah. Well, complementary and alternative medicine —

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the systems-of-healing framework, social medicine — has become more acceptable here in recent decades,

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and new research will expand knowledge regarding the human condition, particularly the role

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of psychological factors in illness and healing. A lot of the research that I did

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was Torrey — the Torrey model — and Frank and Frank, where they came up with these different

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models of mind-body medicine. I think in the West doctors don't use

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it enough. I mean, they could boost their numbers for healing if they considered the psychological

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factors — that when someone comes in for a healing, they're seeking a cure — just to provide that

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and not be a stuffed-shirt kind of doctor figure, the expert figure. I mean,

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it's not so great. Yeah, it's like taking your car into the shop, isn't it? If the mechanic fixes it, that's all.

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That's how we'll see you, too. Yeah, yeah. But obviously you can't make your fuel-injection system

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think positively, as it were. But I get that. I think that's quite interesting.

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Being able to push your mind towards

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at least accepting it, would you agree? Yes, definitely. Yeah, so that's one of the things that annoys me.

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People say, 'Think positive, think positive.' I'm sure a lot of people who are very ill think that too,

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right? But they are. It's so annoying. But then they know they have to be positive about it. Maybe

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that's where self-help groups come in. Yeah, well, self-help groups are very effective, I'm sure,

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in various ways. Okay, well, listen, it's been brilliant talking to you

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Scott, about that and about the book. I think that, at the end of the day, it's something that people

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should listen to and should open their minds to, because, from my point of view,

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you never know. But for the Filipino Espiritistas, they kind of already do know, don't they?

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Yes, right. So, I mean, I'm saying it's worth reading Dr Scott's book. Take it for granted

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that for hundreds of years the whole culture has revolved around this kind of medicine,

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and it's probably worthwhile to see whether there's something there that can help you.

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Is your book out right now? Yes, it's available through Amazon and Barnes & Noble and all the

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regular places. And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? Do you have

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a website? It's psychicsurgery.net. Listen, viewers, make sure you check that out if you're

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interested in this, because I think it's worth looking at, definitely worth looking at. And also,

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I guess they can find you on social media. I'll leave you to the rest of your day.

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Thank you very much for joining me. As I said, I hope we will speak again soon for your next

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follow-up. Thank you, Chris. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more Author Conversations here.

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