Leading in the AI Age: Jeff Arnold on Judgement, Trust and Staying Human

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000
[Music]

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,400
Hi and welcome to author conversations with me, Chris Dabbs, as usual.

3
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:26,600
Oh, I'm excited today because my guest today has taken a wonderfully unconventional route into leadership.

4
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:32,200
Business Leadership primarily, I would say. My guest is Jeff Arnold. He served in the United States Army.

5
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:42,400
He's pursued acting and drama in Hollywood, trying to stand up comedy and then built a career spanning almost 30 years in insurance and financial technology.

6
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:52,600
Hmm, amazing. But today he's the founder of Right Shore and a best-selling author whose work explores business, money, leadership and technology.

7
00:00:52,600 --> 00:01:04,600
His latest book is Clarity Among Humans and Machines. It asks, "Are the timely question, which fits right now perfectly, as artificial intelligence becomes faster and more capable?

8
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:12,600
What are the things that leaders and perhaps all of us still need to do ourselves as humans?"

9
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,600
Jeff Arnold, after that introduction, welcome to author conversations. It's lovely to meet you.

10
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:25,600
Chris, it's an absolute honor and pleasure to be on the esteemed and honorable Chris Dabs show. So I'm excited to be here.

11
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,600
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. My wife doesn't say that. So thank you very much for the opportunity.

12
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,600
We must lift one another up, right?

13
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:40,600
Yeah, absolutely. That's very true. That's very true. And I love your studio set. That is great. Anya, okay.

14
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:53,600
But mutual appreciation is never a good thing. But okay, before we get anywhere near artificial intelligence, or AI and everything else about that book, you know, you've got quite a good human story here.

15
00:01:53,600 --> 00:02:01,600
I mean, the army, you've got Hollywood, you've got acting, stand-up comedy, entrepreneurship and ultimately insurance, which is amazing.

16
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:09,600
And when you look back at all those, apparently they're all disconnected chapters, right? So, you know, they don't mean anything. Do they really by themselves?

17
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:18,600
But what do you think has connected those all the way through? Were they conscious choices? Or did it just kind of happen? And have you learned from those sort of things?

18
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:36,600
Well, I think we would answer that question different, basically, in different generations of my life, right? And so quite candidly, now, because I'm an aged man and have more time to pontificate and think, I would answer it this way.

19
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:54,600
I have never been afraid of failure, right? And never carried failure forward. It was just something that's been in the DNA of how I was made and how my parents raised me, right? And so, if I failed at one thing, I didn't have a problem. I didn't beat myself up. Some people do.

20
00:02:54,600 --> 00:03:11,600
And that's why I make that comment. But I think in my early 20s or 30s, I would have made a different response to that. And that was this, that would have been this. So I come from four generations of ministers, preachers, right?

21
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:37,600
I think many of the book or of the cloth as it were. And I think I was running away from that. How do I not be the fifth generation of that? And of course, growing up in church, you're standing in front of the pulpit. You never have a problem with microphone. And so, from a young age, I coveted, desired, dreamt and breathed the stage work in theater.

22
00:03:37,600 --> 00:04:02,600
I did a little bit of work in that. I did a little bit of comedy in North Hollywood. Not enough to pay the bills, right? Clearly, it wasn't that good. But it's intoxicating. And at some point, I just shifted to focusing on business. And again, not being afraid of failure started several businesses that didn't work and some that did. And here we are 30 plus years later. So, that's a short luxury.

23
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:23,600
Well, yeah, okay, but thank you. I think it's really interesting as well, because I think culturally there's definitely a thing from I'm in England and UK. And we have a completely different view of failure, I think, to Americans, which is kind of stifles things a bit really.

24
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:33,600
But I'm with you, you know, I failed at things, but always learning and always bringing something forward, but not living with the failure type of thing.

25
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:49,600
Well, as I know, people who don't like that, but there's no way you could be a stand-up comic or even an actor taking direction or a comic taking abuse, or anything else like that without not being afraid of failure, I think.

26
00:04:49,600 --> 00:05:11,600
It's the, I also submit this to you, listen to Chris said it is the highest highs in the lowest lows, right? That's why so many have addictions that are quite difficult to overcome, because you have a great night on stage or great night on an open mic or on a comedy stage, not just theater.

27
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:22,600
You're at the highest high, you have a bomb one night, just could be the audience, could be the energy, could be you. I mean, you want to crawl under your covers and not come out for four or five days, right?

28
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:32,600
And here's what's interesting after I've written 14 books, right? So I've, I've authored 14 books, five number one bestsellers.

29
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:45,600
I don't say that to beat my chest, I'm translating this failure thing. When you have bestsellers, like my first two books are bestsellers. And so I thought, well, this is great, I'll issue book number three, it'll go to number one.

30
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:56,600
Well, books three, four and five were abject failures, right? And so it's that same high, high from being on a stage and killing it to the low of bombing.

31
00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:17,600
When you're, you know, your middle books don't even reach the top 1000, it's so crushing. And so when trying to translate to your listeners is, it doesn't matter if you're an author, if you're in the theater, if you're a singer or a business person or journalist, sometimes you just write junk, right?

32
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:34,600
Apparently, that you have to never carry a fairy forward or don't lean into it, confirming what you said, learn from it. Absolutely. We have to be a learned society, if we're ever going to move forward, but it does not define you, right?

33
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:41,600
It shouldn't define you. Your next chapter, your next book, your next business is what you focus on defining you.

34
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:51,600
Yeah, totally. I'm sorry with you, Jeff. Obviously, I mean, as well as, you know, being a ballcast journalist, so I read live news bulletins and things.

35
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:59,600
And so one minute, you can read a live bulletin on, you know, and it's fine. It's great. Everything's great. And you go, I have brilliant next minute you trip over a word or something.

36
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:20,600
It's just, so yeah, I'm with you there, but anyhow, enough about me. So just briefly then, I mean, I'm interested to know that dealing with people basically in business and staff and things like that, I mean, did acting and comedy teach you anything about reading people, do you think that you subsequently used in business, especially the comedy side of things.

37
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:36,600
You say, maybe it's not the energy, new audience or whatever, but does that help you? Absolutely. I would say this that not only that, but growing up in a spiritual or religious or church environment did too, right?

38
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:54,600
And so there's just certain things you learn about the good and the bad of people, right? And comedy and theater makes mostly an extrovert, right? It's mostly a lot of extroverts that excel in that. And that's great for leadership and that's great for leading businesses.

39
00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:10,600
And here's an interesting point that will resonate with folks because it's this duality, this dichotomy, this yin and yang of how one might use comedy as a leader, right? You have to be very careful.

40
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:25,600
It's a tight rope that you must walk. Here's why. You can use comedy really quick to cut people down and put them in their place, right, or destroy their ego or their ability to contribute to things.

41
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:41,600
Or you can use comedy that is a bit self-deprecating, especially if you're in a leadership role that lets people know that failure is okay. You don't have to take my title or me serious. I'm all about the greater good of the goal, the common goal or the mission.

42
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:59,600
And so you can have successful actors and comics and writers and business that use comedy and you can have unsuccessful. And I think the line or that dichotomy for lack of a better word is knowing when to use it and knowing how to use it.

43
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:17,600
If you push it on you and it's self-deprecating, then others can feel really comfortable. But if it's always used externally against one or two other people, then you're going to shut them down and you won't get the feedback because they're jaded or they feel like they're going to be accosted verbally.

44
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:30,600
And everybody else is going to expect it as well to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuff. It's like the office, isn't it? The comedy show, too much comedy from the boss and it all goes wrong, right?

45
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:37,600
That's the perfect segue. You're right. The English version, the British version, the American version. I love them both. Both great.

46
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:49,600
Anyway, let's move on from your story then to the idea at the heart of the book because it does fascinate me. And as I said, AI is something that I'm interested in the whole concept.

47
00:09:49,600 --> 00:10:00,600
One of the first interviews I ever did was with somebody who was in the early days of AI, well, early days of AI, that goes back to the 50s and 60s. But in the early days, I guess of 2000s.

48
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:10,600
He was fascinating, fascinating guy, wonderful. But the word you keep returning to in your book is not actually the technology of it because it's a technology, yeah. But it's clarity, isn't it?

49
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:19,600
You argue that the problems that face leaders is not about learning how to use AI, right? It's not about learning chat GPT or learning how to use code or whatever it is.

50
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:30,600
But it's remaining clear headed while, and this is the part that gets me, everything around them accelerates at such a pace and you could be left standing there, couldn't you, right?

51
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:38,600
So, what were you seeing around you that made you think clarity had become the thing that leaders were kind of losing, I guess?

52
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:56,600
I argue of chasing every new shiny, blinky tech or software as a service platform to deploy into my businesses, right? So I own shareholder and several soccer teams, semi pro and pro insurance firms, other tech firms.

53
00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,600
And so, you know, all of those required tech, require innovation, require learning new things.

54
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:19,600
I'm addicted to buying new technology and software as a service, but that's not always the best thing. If you're buying software and you're counting the deployment as successful, then that's not the right way to measure because four months from now no one could use it.

55
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:42,600
Also, if you're deploying technology faster than your people can master it, you're going to have a lot of turnover. And so the self-interspection part was on the problem, right? I'm doing too much trying to adopt too much tech and the real thing that's needed in all of these businesses in my estimation is clarity.

56
00:11:42,600 --> 00:12:05,600
And how do you get clarity? I think it'd be easily ascribed to you pause, right? Pause is powerful. If you're leading someone into a great writing, a article or book or journal, you want to pause to draw the leader in maybe with a visual something and then just wait, fill out a hit.

57
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:29,600
If you're speaking from a stage, pauses the most powerful thing you can do the first three seconds. It draws the audience in. Well, the same happens in business as leaders, right? That pause, that reflection, that self-interspection is super powerful because technology is always going to improve.

58
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:50,600
It's always going to happen. What you have to do as a leader is pause and say, where can I line the clarity between the humans and the machine here? Because everyone's wanting to throw AI and everyone's wanting to, you know, either have less done by humans or have a better profit line for getting rid of humans.

59
00:12:50,600 --> 00:13:18,600
I don't ascribe to those serious, but a lot of people are after them to be successful. It's the pause and what comes out of the pause is clarity. And I know I'm going to miss pronouncing. I think it was Descartes or it may have been Pascal, but all man's misery is a result of him not being able to set quietly alone with his thoughts.

60
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:32,600
I think that's more powerful today than it was hundreds of years ago, right? Because there's so much distraction or desire for our attention that pause will bring clarity.

61
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:44,600
Do you know about that so wise? That's true. That day can't get a lot to answer for. He's the one who came up with great power, comes great responsibility and all that sort of stuff as well. It wasn't Spider-Man or Uncle Ben, whatever it was he was in.

62
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:59,600
Yeah, these are these are people who look deep inside themselves and stared and by the way never had a computer, never had a cell phone. They were just one with their thoughts and they gave us, you know, just.

63
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:14,600
It's an art that expand time and extent time. Exactly. I think sometimes we mistake what activity for progress don't we really? You know, I think jumping around the place, but you know, you can do this on an individual level, we can do it on a corporate level or a departmental level.

64
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,600
You know, oh yeah, and nothing happens, right? So it's just running around.

65
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:29,600
But I have to ask you if you're happy to talk about this, of course, clarity is one thing in theory. I mean, your book also contains a rather costly example of what happens when a decision is delayed, right?

66
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:38,600
So you've, you know, there's a remarkable mission in your book where you say you delayed an AI deployment for six months because there were too many other initiatives going on, right?

67
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:52,600
And basically that inability to scale ultimately cost the business multimillion dollar client, right? But you, but then you still advocate pausing, but obviously you're going to tell us, you know, what you've learned from that, right?

68
00:14:52,600 --> 00:15:01,600
So tell you back to that moment. When did you realize that saying not yet to AI had become well, possibly not the right decision?

69
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:23,600
You know, it was definitely the wrong decision. I owned that. I lined with that that failure. I never carry it forward. But so what happened was this is, it was in the insurance space and we had large partners that were growing very, very fast, really fast, more faster than most people are bigger than hockey stick growth.

70
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:43,600
And so they needed our products, our legal contracts for every person that they interacted with. They grew so fast that our humans, like we couldn't keep up with just the sheer demand. We couldn't hire fast enough, right? Cause keep in mind, I'm not talking about, let's just talk in terms of widgets.

71
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:58,600
I'm not talking about from zero to a thousand or 10,000 widgets. They went from 10,000 to 300,000 and 500,000 widgets a year in all of those needed individual attention from our side. We couldn't keep up.

72
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:07,600
Had I leaned into AI sooner, we could have met them. We would have still been behind.

73
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:30,600
We certainly could have met them and still been partners today. We are not. That's my fault not there is a massive hockey stick growth. But the takeaway there is, I was pausing and I was still wrestling with this whole internal dialogue of, I'm trying to adopt every technology, stop, let our people kept, you know, catch up.

74
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:50,600
Well, it came up to bite me right because we were in a pause and in fact, I had an AI solution that that would have worked most of the way and certainly could have been a bolt on, but I told them no, we have too many other initiatives. And so, you know, I own that. I mean, we're fine. We're growing.

75
00:16:50,600 --> 00:17:06,600
But those are some great reasons why we may say pauses and we may look for clarity, but then the universe is like, yeah, but your timing's wrong. You need to lean into it now. These are just leadership lessons we take with us.

76
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:23,600
Totally. I mean, this is the whole point, though, isn't it? And as you say, you don't take that forward with you. You take the lesson forward with you. Right. So not, not anything else. I mean, let's say, you know, something about the process about it fell later on from about 17 minutes to 12 seconds or something.

77
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:43,600
I mean, what did that sort of result teach you about where to begin with AI? Because it's incredible that the, as you say, hockey stick growth in terms of the graph and everything. I mean, how it's just mind boggling, isn't it? I mean, tell us a bit more about that. I mean, why did you, why do customers, customers hate to AI as well? Didn't they? There was something about this.

78
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:59,600
Yeah, this is we can unpack this a lot. I'll try to be succinct. And so, personally, confirming the metric, we went from 12 minutes to two minutes and 12 seconds or 13 minutes on average to two minutes and 12 seconds by leveraging AI.

79
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:12,600
And we'll talk about the vertical that that worked in and then I'll follow up with why we thought that that success would carry on to other parts of the business and it didn't. So let me set the stage for your, for your listeners.

80
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:26,600
This is an insurance transaction, a coverage transaction for motor cars or our auto insurance in the states. And so, if you aren't using a website, you will call in on the telephone.

81
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:45,600
And it would take about 13 minutes to intake all of the data. When we inserted AI into the process and we told them right up front the caller, this is a virtual assistant, it will take less than three minutes. They're going to ask some whom questions, could they just answer them directly.

82
00:18:45,600 --> 00:19:09,600
And so, it worked wonderfully well. I mean, superbly well, once the consumer knew that it was a virtual assistant and then the questions just didn't get all out of alignment versus when we had humans at the 13 plus minute segment, there was normal back and forth, right small talk, other questions led to another question led to house the weather.

83
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:30,600
And all of these are delightful and they're fine, but if someone's in a hurry and you're looking for time compression and you're looking to add volume and growth and scale, you need shorter time segments, right for both. This is for quotes. And so it worked very, very well. I mean, and consumers didn't mind it. Right. Because then the handoff was excellent.

84
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:44,600
I'll get one of our famously friendly humans on the line for you and we'll finish this process up. No problem. Great. Where it failed was we thought I thought.

85
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:59,600
Let's use that same AI or super intelligence technology on the front of our phone systems to help people out when they're calling with payments or claims or questions or whatever. And guess what, it was an object failure. Here's why.

86
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:14,600
In our industry, the industry of legal contracts insurance, right in demification. People pay a thing called a premium and they expect a human or they expect someone answer to get them service.

87
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:25,600
They don't want to push a bunch of buttons and they don't want to talk to in my customers words, a toaster, they call it a toaster. Right. I'm not going to talk to a toaster or chip. I want to talk to a human.

88
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:37,600
So we thought I thought we would put it in the front of our processes because we could handle more calls quicker. It was a failure there because they wanted that human connectivity.

89
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:43,600
But when they were just shopping and getting started, they were okay.

90
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:50,600
Compressing that time and then getting to a human. So there's just two different ways for work in our industry.

91
00:20:50,600 --> 00:21:04,600
It's amazing. But I guess it kind of, well, I say I was going to say it right. I mean, if someone's calling right on the telephone, they probably got an aversion to technology. Maybe I don't know. But you know, otherwise maybe.

92
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:16,600
Yeah. Well, it's true. It depends. And you, you, the great leadership lesson from this is you have to meet customers where they are. And this is the truth. I think I say in my last two books.

93
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:31,600
Customers don't care when you're open anymore. They care when they need you. And that's where you better be. You know, Amazon has made it 24/7. You can track your package. You can get it anywhere. Uber could get your food from anywhere or take you anywhere.

94
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:41,600
And so consumers have that expectation that every business should be able to do that. And in our industry, they don't care when you're open. They care when they need you.

95
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:50,600
If they have an incident at midnight or 1 a.m., they expect that you're there. And so that's that's prevalent throughout almost every industry now.

96
00:21:50,600 --> 00:22:01,600
Yeah, that's true. So in that, in that case, you're kind of running a 24/7 operation, right? But I mean, how did you decide which things the machine could do?

97
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:20,600
Yeah, trial and error. Like again, we made some mistakes. We thought, oh, it could do everything. Well, you have to meet customers where they are. And if customers call like you say, they probably want to talk to your human. But if humans aren't there, it's, I can get you into a chat channel or a website channel.

98
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:41,600
Or I can have a virtual assistant help you, which you're most comfortable with. And so you meet them in the channel that they want to be in. And if they start at a chat on your website, you can say, open or closed, I can get you to a human or we can continue in this. And so, you have to understand the channels that they're operating in and what they prefer.

99
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:59,600
And then at some point, they might want to leave that channel. For example, in our business, people love the anonymity of getting quotes because they don't trust right suspicion is very high amongst insurance companies and people shopping trust is very low, right? And so they want to start online in this anonymity piece.

100
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:14,600
And so, you know, you have to be anonymous and see kind of what rates or premiums look like. And then if they like it and suspicion is crawling down and trust is creeping up, then they may switch channels and call you on the telephone or chat.

101
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:26,600
But they like the anonymity because there's so much suspicion around insurance companies. And that's the channel they want to start in the end of the day. You have to meet them in the channel they're in.

102
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:38,600
If you're a, if you're podcast host, you might intake people in on a podcast form, right? But ultimately, you have to switch channels to be in front of the camera. And that you got to meet them where they're where they're at.

103
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:46,600
You don't want to start the interview on camera. You're going to start with the intake. And so, you know, you're going to transfer the lane that they're in or the path that they've come in.

104
00:23:46,600 --> 00:24:01,600
But I think there is an issue there though, isn't there? In terms of, I guess traditionally before AI became as strong as it is right now, you'd off shore, our hours sort of calls, right? Or for you guys, you different stated, whatever you guys call it there.

105
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,600
Yeah.

106
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:17,600
You know, but I think that comes into problems as well, doesn't it? Especially like over here when people do that. And I'm not even talking about thousands of miles away. I'm talking about about different accents and attitudes.

107
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:25,600
And they can still be, you know, famously, you know, everybody goes on about the Indian subcontinent sometimes, but at least over here they do, right?

108
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:34,600
And which is, you know, kind of unfair because you've got some very clever smart people, but of course they're in a whole different kind of culture.

109
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Okay. So sometimes that causes an issue, I think. But so this is where what do you do? Do you off shore off state, outstate, whatever you call it?

110
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:48,600
Or do you implement AI? I mean, you know, how do you actually manage that transition?

111
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,600
It's an incredible choice to make, I think, isn't it?

112
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,600
Oh, I mean, do you just ask your customers and make them where they want?

113
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:04,600
Well, you, you, you trial and you look for the message between the lines, right? Some people won't be so direct and you got to read through the data.

114
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:14,600
Well, so yeah, you know, you go to another town, the town north southeast of Wethu and absolutely accent's different in your part of the woods, right? Or in your part of the world.

115
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:26,600
And in hours, it can be two from the deep south to the Spanish field, Southwest to the north or what have you. And people want to deal with people they know and like and trust.

116
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:38,600
And again, nothing wrong with the emits of continent or the Taiwan or Vietnamese call centers, but you know instantly there's a different tonality and you hit the nail on the head.

117
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:48,600
There's a different economic scale there. And so the, the, the pressures of the struggles they have are different than ours. I'm not saying better or worse, they're just different.

118
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:57,600
And so although I know a lot of those centers have people watch a lot of American movies or movies to get the accent and stuff right.

119
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:11,600
But it's a tonality and it's just a lack of understanding sometimes. And so my decision was made that, you know, we're doing everything on shore. And then super intelligence can fill up, but we are not going offshore.

120
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,600
We certainly have employees in 11 states or nine states.

121
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:28,600
But it's all kind of a same kind of educational base level that makes sense. Yeah, of course. And I'm with technology now you can root cause some different states to same state and all that sort of jazz.

122
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:39,600
So I mean, that's not an issue so much, I guess. But yeah, I mean, you know, that again, if you think about it as a leader, you know, everything has accelerated in those terms. Isn't it very quickly?

123
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:52,600
So you know, leaders like you can make a choice now, whereas before you didn't have an option. That's true, right? The super intelligence as we're calling it now gives you a whole host of new options.

124
00:26:52,600 --> 00:27:04,600
But is it how don't you get me on super inter I thought super intelligence was another step up from the AI that we currently are. I know and then your president said super intelligence and everything. And it's just like, what I thought was different anyway.

125
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:13,600
Okay. So what is it that you think I'm loving this conversation, by the way, I know that other people will.

126
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:25,600
What can a human still do that very, very sophisticated AI can't I mean, I've got my own theories on the right story very, but you know, I think no, go on, you tell me.

127
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:45,600
Well, I think look the way I view AI or super intelligence, whatever we're calling it is it does repetitive the Monday and the transactional right now, of course it's learning the LLM's it's learning can be as fast as us or maybe a smart as us, but it will never possess empathy.

128
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:54,600
Right. It doesn't have true leadership skills. It might not understand compromise. These are uniquely human things, right.

129
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:08,600
And you could argue if you want to get a little bit metaphysical or philosophical that there is no man in the world that I'm aware of that is trying to impress a computer right.

130
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:14,600
I mean, we will we will go to great links to impress a woman or whatever the obfxxx or the same sex in these days.

131
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:24,600
We will dress different, we will shout different, we will change jobs, we do these things for people because at the end of the day,

132
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:40,600
money is how a lot of people keep score, but what men crave more than all if you're serious with yourself is respect admiration and trust right like we get all those for that thing to be respected to be admired or to be trusted and the money is just a byproduct.

133
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:54,600
Well, no man is going to want that from a computer in my mind right that's a uniquely human thing. And so although AI can handle again repetitive the mundane the transactional.

134
00:28:54,600 --> 00:29:02,600
Can it really be empathetic. Can it get are you going to want it to respect you and are you going to want to impress it.

135
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:19,600
I would submit the answer is no right and so those are uniquely human things and also maybe perhaps our lives shift and it's not 40 hours of work week anymore.

136
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:32,600
What if there's a 20 or 30 hour work week that's the same kind of economic gain or economic base but you have a better quality of life right like the end of the day.

137
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:48,600
You know this might be my religious or spiritual or preacher's kid background have been to quite a few free murals no one's probably been at that last moment of going off I could have just done one more line of code or very I could have done this no they're seeking that human connectivity or that.

138
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:57,600
In path ability or that alignment with another soul not a micro chip.

139
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,600
That's true. I wish I'd clean my keyboard something like that right so.

140
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,600
I mean you've got a philosophical metaphysical whatever bit that was but it's true right.

141
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:17,600
It's totally true. Totally true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you know this is the thing I think business is underestimate that value of trust there because you know putting everything on an AI or virtual chat.

142
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:46,600
I mean there are some good ones or some awful ones right which are just like you know what is any of me is you know I consider myself an early adopted to a certain extent as well but you know I think that maybe businesses don't really think about that so much because of it's you know it's not tangible is it you can't put it on spreadsheet even though you can kind of put something on there for the human you know the human assets can't you I think you know not that far more than me I think.

143
00:30:46,600 --> 00:31:00,600
But you know but obviously customers you know sunny one side right I mean let's talk about the people inside the business because you've just hit something on the on the nail on the head I think of something that again makes me think a lot about this.

144
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:13,600
You're talking about having a 20 hour work week being just as productive because you're not or one isn't actually doing mundane tasks because the machine a I SI whatever is doing that right.

145
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:42,600
And if you think about it that sounds like a great thing right sounds like a great scheme I've read I've seen this movies but this is Disney movies about that kind of stuff you know you're talking about wallie for instance right so you know different they're all on that on that spaceship on they all out there or with the tablets all not working you know I mean you know I mean that's very simplistic obviously but I think this goes back a long way I think there's a lot of more metaphysical stuff about that you know humans are.

146
00:31:42,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Important the the there's it's missing point in the equation you know and you write that AI adoption tends to divide organizations right we've got the early adopters you got the fence sitters you got the resistors and leaders are often wasting energy trying to persuade all three groups at once which is very true right isn't it.

147
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:21,600
I mean when you say to somebody in your own workforce he tells you look Jeff this if this technology I don't like it it's actually going to replace me I am going to lose my job because this one is going to be able to design this better or do that better or whatever it is and this is why should I embrace it and help you to replace me.

148
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:36,600
Certainly have received this comment many many times right in all the businesses I've been part of and first of course as a leader you want to align with them or acknowledge what they're feeling right our go in this most recent.

149
00:32:36,600 --> 00:33:04,600
Excuse me interaction that I had was look your value you're needed you can't be replaced what we're trying to do is take some of this stuff that is just so repetitive that you do every day and it's mindless and we need your brain and your ability to recognize problems or integrate interact with humans more than we need you typing out another 15 things on a keyboard right let's let super intelligence artificial intelligence do that.

150
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:24,600
So the first part is you acknowledge it but you you cannot not be clear with them that this is the direction we're going and I've had to have those conversations before too I've heard what you said I've aligned I've given you some space and I've painted the vision that this is where we're going.

151
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:53,600
I'll tell you this that this ship is leaving I'd love to have you as a passenger on this boat but it's leaving with you without you and with you means you're adopting this technology with us without this means that you want to be a lot of it right I wouldn't insult them but like you you want to be you know you don't want to adopt this you want to cross your arms and dig your heels in and clinch your jaw and you're going to get left right now wouldn't sit in a confrontational argument of way but I would be clear at the end of that conversation.

152
00:33:53,600 --> 00:34:22,600
So clear at the end of that conversation is you're needed you're desired you're not looking at this the way I'm looking at it if we can align and look at the same perfect get on the ship because it's leaving right it's not coming back so open but just be real I wouldn't hit anybody with that in the beginning because you want to acknowledge that but if you're moving forward and you're committed to it listen we're committing our time our talent and our treasury to this new direction that's the direction we're going I am open for that.

153
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:51,600
I am open for all the feedback I'm not I will not tolerate any sabotage right or any destruction or cancer we're in the within I will cut it out instantly but I will hear your feedback I will respond earnestly and I will change the direction if it makes sense but not getting on the ship is not an option I mean those are just simple things for me to talk about right with 30 plus years of experience sometimes not for everyone but that's how I would handle those conversations in fact that's how I do it.

154
00:34:51,600 --> 00:35:20,600
It makes no sense you know as you say luddites you know people who don't embrace technology you know that went back a couple of few hundred years and they're people smashing looms and you know and then you've had the other thing obviously with the agricultural revolution with people smashing farm machinery and things because it you know but I because at the end of the day people were actually just want to know what they're doing right

155
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:37,600
I think and they they want to make sure that their their lives are secure in some way and then a lot of people don't like change I think those of us that like change are fortunate to be in the position of being able to call shots in certain respects I think that's very very true very very true.

156
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:51,600
Yeah I think that a lot of people you know they don't they have no ideas not ideas so they don't know how they could be affected by it so it's it's a real worry it's like I get travel sick okay and the

157
00:35:51,600 --> 00:36:06,600
reason I get travel sick is because I can't I can't actually predict what's going to happen in the car boats played wherever it is right and I think that's maybe it's just about being control anyway but at your place right right sure you call your people famously friendly humans I love it that's

158
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:23,600
really nice you know you're arguing that their presence and connection and making another person feel heard as you just said right that that's not accidental you say that that can be taught and practiced now I think I mean can you really teach somebody

159
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:34,600
to care or can you only recruit people who already do who already are empathic who aren't so you know quick to just don't dismiss people I mean

160
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:51,600
do you really think that you can change someone to do that I think we have proof and it is absolutely a learned and intentionality mindset behind it right and so you you have to

161
00:36:51,600 --> 00:37:04,600
on board people making them aware that this isn't a robotic drone punch in punch out type of off type of opportunity someone say job we don't it's opportunity we don't have agents we don't

162
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:20,600
have brokers we don't have anything but famously friendly humans and there are 280 transactions that make a famously friendly human I'll give you five of them real quick at the beginning of every call which everyone learns is you

163
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:36,600
will do these five things you will greet you will repeat what the client said you will listen right greet listen sorry repeat verify that you have all the the coverage is or the things that you get into the red direction and then you will complete a task right so assigned to someone

164
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:48,600
or get it done but just a simple act of listening and repeating goes so far you'd be how amazed that you call someone study at the next time you say something and they're just on to

165
00:37:48,600 --> 00:38:01,600
the next piece and maybe didn't validate but listening and repeating is super important from a communication standpoint especially when talking about legal contracts but that's just one step and that's five steps in that in that first thing when they

166
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:15,600
calls there's 279 other functions right what happens at claims time or whatever which is why people are buying policies is it oh let me eat a claims number no it's how are you

167
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:25,600
what happened right even though we can affect right then they want to tell somebody instantly we know that it wasn't my father was my father no how are you

168
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:37,600
like tell me more about it like like Chris it's they're a put it for them to be able to talk to someone that listens right and so yes we can train them and then they have

169
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:52,600
like hundreds of response modules not scripts the things that they have to learn and imbues and infuse with their own tonality like we talk about and their own emotion and their own personality and so yes it can be trained

170
00:38:52,600 --> 00:39:05,600
there are people who would fight it but those aren't the people we're looking for and we're really clear about that up front that's some if you're just looking for a place to you know check in and check out and get a

171
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:18,600
above industry pay wage is what we do when you know unheard of vacation in sick time which is over 30 days a year for people which is 14 100 level stuff then if that's all your after you're not going to fit here

172
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:30,600
because it's not about making you happy it's about you making our customers happy that's what a famously friendly human does and so yeah it can be taught but they're I'll say this

173
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:40,600
when the heart is ready the teacher will come and so they have to have a ready and willing heart to be taught how to be famously friendly and be a famously friendly human

174
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:50,600
that makes sense and yeah exactly because now you've put it like that then yeah I can I can see it you mean because you're breaking it down for someone it's not like they have to change the whole personality but you know you're

175
00:39:50,600 --> 00:40:02,600
you're only going to as you say on board people who have a certain you know demeanor or a certain aspect to that I guess but because of course you know one person I guess in a team somewhere maybe in a small team I

176
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:09,600
don't know how you how everything's worked out for you but you know one person can really start to damage your culture and you alluded to that earlier on when you

177
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:16,600
said you know about cutting out the cancer straight away you know that you just basically don't take any prisoners when it comes to that because I

178
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:26,600
mean how quickly do you think or have you seen things like that really start to fester and cause problems what one bed hire can destroy a culture that you've taken a

179
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:40,600
lifetime to build right it is a cancer that eats rapidly through it and they get other people on board and so you you have to hire fast and fire faster right we're all aware of that one person

180
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:50,600
sometimes we've been that one person whether we want to admit it or not right but those have to get checked real quick and those have to get on an

181
00:40:50,600 --> 00:41:02,600
improvement plan really quick or they need to be removed so it is higher fast fire faster in between their improve or be removed right like that's just what we're going to spin an

182
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:16,600
in or down a amount of time together everyone that works together what we want the right culture and we want the right group of people no that's that that's fair isn't I mean yeah just do it fast don't don't pause too long and don't

183
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:27,600
sort of procrastinate on that you know just get on with it right and I'll say something a bit controversial that you know we although there's been especially when I had thousands of

184
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:37,600
employees there was immense pressure for me to focus on this I'm just going to call it what it is this absurd DEI quote of stuff right for me this could be a bit

185
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:47,600
confrontation for some but all it does is put a whole bunch of different types of people sometimes together can't get longer they don't have the same ideology and I'm not talking about racial discrimination or

186
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:56,600
anything like that that people want to bring up because they're small minded I've done a people that you know you're you're being forced in just because you have to hire

187
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:11,600
certain amount of people that that would never have the ideology or never have the impact skills or never had the desire to learn you're just filling a quota and so I've always fought that even when it wasn't popular

188
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:23,600
and that's been a reason why so many our companies have been awarded and had super high exits because culture matters and I'm not against hiring people I'm about hiring the right people

189
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:40,600
and they shouldn't have to fit inside a box and and that's be forced to hire and so I'm I'm I'm very staunch against those kind of hiring practices I suppose I can see what you're saying there you know I mean if you're forced I think over here

190
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:50,600
we had some issues about in our Air Force people not being recruited or something you know who basically had been flying since they were about 14 or something

191
00:42:50,600 --> 00:43:02,600
and to you know not being recruited for pilot training or something because of that you know and it's I think that's what that's where things like that go wrong I think yeah yeah exactly

192
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:15,600
but I mean you you know you know this you've built businesses you bought and sold businesses you've written extensively you know your experience is great you've lost things you rebuilt them and now you're navigating this enormous technological thing and also

193
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:30,600
still try to to manage the human element of everything if you could teach I guess somebody one leadership lesson that you personally had to learn the hard way you know what would that be because it they were very hard lessons to learn right

194
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:38,600
yeah I that's I got a think on that one for a second but I would say that

195
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:54,600
it's a self test you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and not have to look away you're going to make some very difficult calls you're going to have some gigantic failures you're going to have some monumental successes

196
00:43:54,600 --> 00:44:06,600
the end of the day you have to look that man in the mirror and the eyes and love yourself and trust yourself and know yourself not beat yourself up for the failures and not let your ego get out of control

197
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:19,600
when when when wealth comes or riches come or success happens and so it is a real connectivity connectedness with yourself I think I think that's super important

198
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:30,600
yeah I but that's that's very wise again in the UK that we had a good couple of few decades ago there was a quite a successful PLC you know public company

199
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:44,600
they floated all that sort of jazz and it's it's CEO I guess was at a dinner with other CEOs and he made a very not a very good joke about his own products and the quality of his own products

200
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:51,600
and basically you can imagine what happened after that I mean he really did the disservice on his own products

201
00:44:51,600 --> 00:45:01,600
and I think within the year it was gone and this was a huge company right because of course the press jump on it and all that reputation of damage was just so awful

202
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:09,600
and see even now you can mention this to people of a certain age obviously but and they'll know or business schools you know they'll know about it

203
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:16,600
such a mistake such a mistake so yeah yeah yeah I can see that well this Jeff we're we're kind of running out of time which is awful right

204
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:26,600
but I really is because there's so much I want to talk to you about maybe we'll have to meet up again but let's finish by looking beyond the immediate business case for AI

205
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:33,600
all right your book it's ultimately asked a question which is much larger than whether businesses are just adopt another piece of tech

206
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:40,600
right because we've got AI that can inform recommend and accelerate basically you know these LLM's I use every day

207
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:49,600
and you know we will get you know our own preferred versions of doing it of using it and we're all becoming or not

208
00:45:49,600 --> 00:46:00,600
if only it was all but we are some of us are becoming I guess prompt geniuses in terms of being able to write a prompt into an LLM

209
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:06,600
that gives you the information you need to have to keep going back all right but it causes me a lot of stress I have to say

210
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:19,600
anyway so AI it can inform as I say and and move things faster get you moving faster but you can't take what an LLM gives you a large language model gives you as gospel

211
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:30,600
to talk back to your daughter but you can't you know judgment and accountability still belong to people are at universities you've got students submitting work

212
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:38,600
that's just they've just printed out you know and it's or you've got people who were cutting pasting into forms which says you should use this answer as well

213
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:47,600
that's what I would do and it's just mind boggling so this is the main question for you and this is the one that actually scares me

214
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:55,600
I'll go soon 20 years from now when machines are vastly more capable than they are today and it actually scares me

215
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:03,600
I mean let's not even talk about quantum right but what do you hope that we've stubbornly refused to alternate let's look at it on a good point

216
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:13,600
review as opposed to you know terminator stuff but yeah that fear rises up in my soul too right that bubbles up is like all right

217
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,600
they're getting exponentially smarter quicker right and that's there's nothing going to stop that

218
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:33,600
what comes to mind when you ask that question is that just in the last hundred and fifty years or whatever humanity is lived through the industrial revolution right

219
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:43,600
the internet revolution which was going to change everything and now the intelligence revolution so these are three supposed revolutions in maybe two lifetime right last hundred

220
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:54,600
hundred fifty years or so and we're still here and we're still fine it's going to be different but you know the internet revolution was going to put all these people out of work too

221
00:47:54,600 --> 00:48:02,600
and all that did was make a ton more businesses that we couldn't even have imagined a long time ago or like cable companies not seeing what Netflix said

222
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:09,600
or all these things that the internet ushered in or the ability to feed so many people that the industrial revolution brought about

223
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:21,600
that your grandparents and your parents lived longer than their generations before them because of that and so I'm a bit of an optimist that the intelligence revolution is I'm framing it

224
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:33,600
well usher in way more positive things and negative I have fear and concerns about that but the same people had fears about the internet revolution and industrial revolution

225
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:54,600
this is admittedly different but I'm a glass half full kind of guy and I'm going to look to the positive side I'm not going to bear in my head there stuff needs to be done to put some guard rails on this but I think twenty years from now we're going to be glad that we lived through this and we're and we're part of this intelligence revolution

226
00:48:54,600 --> 00:49:06,600
yeah I like it I like the way you put that yeah actually good point I mean you know if you remember when I guess the railways first came out right and trains and people thought they would die if they went over 30 miles an hour

227
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:18,600
because of course no one had you know I mean left you know we're off it but I mean for for them it was a big deal so yeah yeah yeah I mean but it is as you say it is different

228
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:44,600
because we're talking about the whole world being potentially affected at the same time okay instantly of course but no same here I can see you know it makes my life easier it makes you know lots of other people's lives easier it makes you know businesses more streamlined which ultimately means that the human beings can as you say move towards less mundane repetitive work

229
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:49,560
As long as, again, you talk about the robotic revolution in car factories, for instance, right?

230
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:56,840
Put lots of people out of work and whatnot, but I was going to say they've all found work elsewhere.

231
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,040
But you know what I mean. But I don't want to be too simplistic about it. I don't want to be

232
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:08,200
a doom monger either because I'm very much for it. Listen Jeff, this has been fantastic talking to you.

233
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:15,240
I think we could literally talk for days, I think about this. But you've got the time, I've

234
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:20,840
got the time. But it's been wonderful. Thank you very much for joining me. You know, your book that

235
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:27,400
we've been talking about in a rough way is clarity among humans and machines. And we're talking

236
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,080
about leadership really. We're talking about AI. We're talking about all sorts of things like that.

237
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:37,000
And you know, I urge you to have a look at the book. And also, if it was 15 books that you've

238
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,400
written, Jeff, is that that's right? You say 14 books working on 15 now, yes.

239
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:48,440
Yeah, you're a machine, a prolific author, as they say. But yeah, I mean, tell us about how people

240
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,200
can contact you. I mean, how can they, you know, sort of like get onto your socials or your website

241
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:58,200
or you know, find the books even. Thank you so much, Chris. Firstly, it has been an absolute pleasure. I

242
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:05,000
quite candidly. I feel like I've met a kindred soul. And I am rather certain that I have a new friend

243
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,480
across the pond that went on there. You know, we will be having dinner together and vice versa

244
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,560
when you're over here. And so those are not empty words. I mean, that's sincerely. This has been

245
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:19,880
absolutely delightful. If you're looking for any of my books or my speaking gigs, they're

246
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:26,280
Jeff Arnold dot com. Just real simple, Jeff Arnold dot com. And that's where the J. Yeah, J.E. Double

247
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:32,440
that. That is correct. To EFF. There you go. Where are you never done? It's a Jeff reason. Oh,

248
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:39,320
and I spoke different isn't there. So J.E. Double F. And then the rest. Brilliant. Okay. Well,

249
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,680
listen, thanks again, Jeff. It has been wonderful. And I can't wait to meet you in person. Yeah,

250
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,080
and we'll go for that dinner. And then we'll film that too. And so people can see our conversation.

251
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:53,800
But yeah, listen, everyone. Thank you very much for watching. If you have any comments,

252
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,640
what do you think about the future? What do you think about 20 years time? What do you think about

253
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:03,560
having AI or super intelligence help you to build and scale your business? And how about your job as

254
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:09,160
well? And the way that things are changing, mention it in the comments. Get onto Jeff's website.

255
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,080
Let me know what you think. You know, let's have a conversation about it. I know that sounds old

256
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,240
fashion, but let's do it. Let's talk about it. And you don't have to ring us. Okay, you can use

257
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:22,360
your keyboard. You're okay. But anyway, you'd be watching all the conversations with Chris Downs again.

258
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:27,000
Thank you all for joining us. And I'll see you in the next the next episode. And Jeff Arnold.

259
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,840
Thanks very much for joining me. Thank you. Thanks. Bye bye.

260
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:45,480
If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more author conversations here.

261
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,480
[Music]