Can Your Thoughts Change How You Feel? | Steven Rogat

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Hi and welcome to author conversations with me, Chris Dabbs as usual. Now, most of us have

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probably heard the expression that the mind and the body are connected, right? But how

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much influence do our thoughts really have over the way we feel, both physically and emotionally?

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Well my guest today has spent much of his professional life exploring that exact question.

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Stephen Rogat is a licensed professional counselor, teacher and an author whose work has taken

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him from conventional therapy into the world of shamanism and spiritual healing. But what

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I found particularly interesting when researching this particular interview was that his own

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understanding of healing hasn't always been straightforward. He's explored different

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approaches. He's questioned what he believed and drawn on his own experiences along the way.

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His book is called Healing Thoughts, Practical Shamanism for Healthy Living. And why, sorry,

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how are you then Steven? Welcome to Author Conversations.

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I'm good. I'm good. It's good to be here. It's interesting because somebody posted on Facebook

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over a while ago, if you were doing exactly what you wanted to do right now, what would you

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be doing? And I said, typing on Facebook. Okay. Okay. So yeah, no, this is a good place

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to be. So I'd say I'd rather go fishing, but I didn't that this morning. Oh, look out.

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Well, they love it. Yeah. And it's interesting that you said, well, I did a little call

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over from psychotherapy into shamanism. But actually, I think it was the other way around

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that I was into shamanism first. And then the psychotherapy. There's a gray area there.

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I know when I first got into this, it was at the age of 16, basically, I studied for three days.

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The first day, I realized that maybe this could be a problem, you know, and just a hint, you know.

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The second day I picked up this weird book on helping yourself with a psycho cosmic power,

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you know, one of those 16 year olds says, I got to do this, you know. And I have to do a positive

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thought, imagery, relaxation. And I say I studied for three days because the third day was my last day

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of stuttering. Only to find out when I was taking some classes about eight years later

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on developing your intuition and shamanism that a couple of the meditations and exercises seemed

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real familiar. And I looked at the book and share enough. They were almost two-dougat of the book.

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So the book had been on shamanism, even though I just thought it was some neat little title, you know.

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So that's where I started all this. And here it is. What is it? 65 years later.

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And I am still doing it, you know. So I was doing a shamanic work and the intuitive work.

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And then I decided to get my license in council. You know, it's I'm a head work mental health or whatever

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I look to real good on paper and they hired me anyway, you know. But I mean, I remember the

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supervisor, the head of the program, you know, she had us write a paper on what we learned, you know,

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in our work. And I handed in the paper this 35 page novelette, you know, and I don't like what you've

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been doing. I don't like how you've been doing it. I don't like that you've been doing it without

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supervision. I don't like this. I don't like this. But here's six credits because you learned a lot.

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You know, it's like, okay, I'll take it. You know, so yeah, I was known as

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the resident rain dancer in a couple of my classes. And then I when I taught at college, I was

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I was the resident ghost buster. Because that's another book that I have ghosts in the

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most personal and country spirits. So it's been a long, it's been a long haul. And that's why I wrote

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actually the healing thoughts, practical shamanism was because I've been trying to combine the two.

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So they don't have to argue with each other. And you know, there's lots of people into metaphysics,

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intuition, whatever else that don't trust counselors. And there's lots of counselors that say, well,

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that's crazy, you know, and don't trust who you're coming from as far as the intuition and the

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seeking guidance and ways of becoming more, I guess. So I, you know, I've actually read the book

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probably 15 or 20 times between editing or whatever else. And I still like it. Oh my god, I might even

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use it as a referral. It's like, oh, I forgot about that. Well, that's good. That's pretty good.

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Quite good recommendation of his ideal for actually going back to it all the time.

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No, just like. Well, god, you know, I mean, on the shamanic work, it's again, when I first studied,

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when I was growing into a development and metaphysics and whatever else in both time, I actually

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studied shamanism. I was like, oh, that's what I'm doing. Okay, because there are different definitions

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of a shaman. I know Sandra Engerman, one author. She says it's a shaman as someone who intervenes on

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your behalf with the world of spirit. So that means talking to your greater self, your higher self,

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your spirit, your soul, but also your whole self, which means the different parts of yourself.

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So we can intercede there. And you know, sometimes I tell people, well, let me introduce you to a

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part of you that you've always wanted to meet. And so that's one definition, another definition,

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which I really love. I love this definition. That's from Joan Halifax, and she's not really a shaman.

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She was an anthropologist, but she says, a shaman is, you're going to love this. A shaman is a

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master of ecstasy. If I can get you in touch with your pain or the anxiety or the physical or the

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mental or emotional crap, but it helps you into an ecstatic state while you're experiencing that,

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it takes the power away from that. I mean, it diminishes the pain mentally, emotionally, physically,

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it just, it gets above all that stuff. So I love the master of ecstasy thing. And because,

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you know, I mean, some people think of a shaman as doing all this ritualistic stuff. And, you know,

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and yeah, yeah, there is sometimes some ritual involved because it gives it more validity.

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People get more involved. There's a part of ourselves that way you can call it the subconscious,

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or I call it the lower self. It knows a ritual, it's knows, but it's a ritual, but still,

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it's participating and seems real enough. It's like a placebo. Why does the placebo work?

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Because people think that it's real. Well, so maybe a shamanism is just one big

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placebo to convince people that they're healing. And you're wondering, oh, it works.

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If I can heal myself a little bit with a placebo, I do it. I like it. Yeah, totally.

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And then the last definition also of surge kin,

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that can't excuse me. Let me get a drink here. I studied with somewhat extensively. And I like

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them because he liked my book. So, you know, says it's a healer of relationships that's what a shaman is.

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A healer of relationships. And yet, we have a relationship with not only our environment and with

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other people, with nature, with spirit, with our own thoughts and with our own feelings and with

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ourselves. So, how can I help heal the relationship that we have with ourselves? And so that, in

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some ways, that's the most encompassing definition of a shaman that I like. So, and again, it's to make it real

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on those. And then, you know, I would keep studying, it's tempting to study more, but a lot of it would be

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review. And, you know, so I went down to Peru and studied with a shaman and I told them some of what

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it, what do we do? What my wife and I does some of this too. And you say, well, that's what I do. Well,

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that's what I do. And he says, well, that's what I do, you know. So, and then we exchange some healing.

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And he said, well, that's what I would do. Okay. Well, to be honest, I did it. You know.

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Did you think, did he think that he was right in the first place? Or did he think, do you know what I mean?

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Who would, that's a really interesting thing. A really interesting point there. So, you're from the US,

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you're in Peru, right? I think people think that, you know, like the public or whatever I'm assuming here,

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but I assume that a lot of people think that Peru or somewhere like that, because I'm talking,

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I'm not thinking that you met this person in Lima or anything like that. Maybe it was in the,

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in the wilds or something like that, because I think that's what people sort of equate shamanism to.

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So, people living outside of urban environments, maybe, in small communities, you know,

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with after healing each other, that sort of thing. Would that be right?

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They think of it just because shamanism and that type of healing is more common in traditional

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societies. And yet there's cross-cultural shamanism and that's what's

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happening in San Antonio and Michael Horner's teach. And it's like, well, there are certain basic tenets,

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tenets, tenets, anyway. It's a great word. There are certain concepts and practices that are

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actually cross-cultural. But we can practice it in our daily life. That's why, you know,

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practical shamanism for a healthy living. We can use those tools wherever we are, even

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search in as one book, it's called the urban shaman. Because we can bring it to, we can,

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we can bring it to home. You know, it is a subsistency, though. It really is cultural

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and that's why a lot of psychology, psychiatrists, or, you know, I mean, they do a good job,

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but some of them discount the more traditional cultures. And that's societal.

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That's why I had a little tough time in my degree because psychology looks at more linear thinking

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and tangible results and it's a science. Whereas the shamanic thought is more

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kind of considered magical thinking. Owmans, well, the spirituality, you know, I find the

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feather at most a good luck. I used to collect paperclips. That was my own. If I saw a really

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nice paperclip, most of the mental I was thinking something really important, you know.

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I am lucky pennies, you know, although they say the, you know, heads are supposed to be good,

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log tails are supposed to be bad. So if I see a penny and it's on tails, I'll flip it over the heads

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before I pick it up. Well, very wise, little things like that. But, you know, I think that

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it's interesting again, you know, you're saying these things and funny that that person has written

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that urban shamanism book. So one of the things that you've kind of mentioned that you're

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using shamanism and people see it as a relationship healer. I mean, there's also, as you have said,

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different therapies that people can use in this crossover kind of thing, right? So, you know,

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I found that pretty interesting actually. You acknowledge that, as you've said, conventional

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therapists and their practices, you know, they deal with whatever they deal with. But those will be

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your hierarchal. Yeah. But someone who's into metaphysics or shamanism is real suspect because

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they might be discounted, you know. So how do we take this belief system that we have and be able

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to use it to better ourselves, whether in counseling or whatever any therapy. So that's why I like

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the shamanic approach because it can make any therapy better. It can compliment a lot of different

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things, you know, there's, you know, it's a tough one. The psychology, you know, says, "Well, I'll

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believe it when I see it." You know? And the shamanic and metaphysical perspective is, "I'll see it when I

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believe it." Yes, of course. That's what it's all about. Actually, you know, so it's like, well,

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let's change our beliefs. You know, let's change our beliefs. There's, I have a wonderful, I mean,

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a wonderful story about those beliefs. And it has to do with manifesting something on, you know,

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something in our lives, rather than a physical healing, but the same concepts can be used

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for healing the physical body. Well, it's a healer of relationships, you know? It's like,

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I had one birth a year and a lot of this. I had one birthday. I was a lot younger

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and I was living in Boulder, Colorado, Boulder. But I wanted a car. I didn't have a car. I mean,

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my bicycle was fine and the bus system was fine because Boulder was set up for that. What I really

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wanted a car and I wanted a car by my birthday. And I even went so far as to put a bumper sticker on

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the wall. You know, this is part of the ritual. A bumper sticker there's the beginning of the car.

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I want the rest. Okay, I want the rest of it. So I got my motor work and I was doing some deep

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breathing, some imagery, some visualization, some positive thought. You know, the conscious mind

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I want a car by my birthday. Two weeks before my birthday, right? Somebody called and says, I got a friend

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that has a record store and it was about 35 miles away and they're going out of town for a few weeks

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and they need someone to run the store while they're gone. So I'd love to do it but I need a car

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because I don't have the transportation. So they lent me there was a beat up Pontiac, some Pontiac

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actually knows even that one was nice but it was a beat up. Okay, three days before my birthday.

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Okay, somebody says, I'm flying to me and to visit family and I need a lift to

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the airport. And I said, well, I got this old beat up car but I told them I'd only drive it to,

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you know, to work and back. It said, no problem. You can drive me in my car and you can borrow my car.

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Shout out to Dr. 280Z, a really nice sports car. All right, yeah, two days before my birthday,

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or the day before it. Somebody says, I'm flying out to a workshop in California and I need a lift

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to the airport. And while I'm gone, you can borrow my little Honda 90 dirt bike. And it was like, okay,

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then I'm morning to my birthday. I got up with two cars and a motorcycle in my driveway.

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Now some people could call that coincidence. I don't. I don't at all. Of course,

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four days later, my driveway was empty. Okay, so what we had was the conscious of what might be called

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the "nittal self." It says, I don't want to buy a single, but the lower self the belief was,

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you know, the end result is your best teacher. But please don't let it be mine. I mean, I got the car

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thing, but it couldn't be mine. Over the next year, I tried to get a car. I mean, I'd see when

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there was all that. And I would see the perfect one when I was ten minutes late. I would, you know, I

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would see everything was working, and I put the one little too much money. Well, I got there.

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I was looking at moving at that time. And I was afraid of moving. I had the thought that I'd be lonely,

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and I wouldn't know anybody if I move. So I reprogrammed my belief. I can find friends and

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family wherever I am. I can find friends and family wherever I am. And oh, by the way, I'd still like that car.

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My birthday, somebody gave me a car with the same bumper sticker. Okay, now that was coincidental.

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I'd be sure that's amazing. Really. So that's the way we can discover some other beliefs.

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And change them. And that's in psychotherapy. They explore different beliefs and change them.

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But this is in the context of spirit of our whole soul. You know, the conscious, the subconscious

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of what's called the super conscious of spirit. So I'm that's one of my favorite stories

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about basically healing thoughts. So I, the end result is your best teacher. I manifest

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of this, but this happened. But this is the point, isn't it? I mean, I think that's a great story,

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because, you know, as you say, you manifested it, you could say that you didn't think it through

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properly. So yes, you had the car and another one and the bike. So it was quite successful,

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but you didn't say, oh, it's one one, for instance. So you didn't communicate that to yourself as

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what you're saying. So yeah, so you didn't put yourself in those positions that you didn't

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necessarily realize that you were doing because of your subconscious, right?

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I put a purse to throw during that time and gone the car. I probably would have been, I probably

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would have moved, changing the belief, can open up a whole different world, you know? And again,

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that's, you know, that's when I talk about magical thinking because I think there's magic in the

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world, you know? There's just being alive as magic. Really, I against all odds. Well, we pretend we're conscious.

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Thank you, sir. Yes. You know, the physical healing, I had a, by the time I was 20,

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three and four. I had a pinch, I had a conura. I was accident prone. I had a floating vertebrae. I had

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toxic headaches. My relationships were not the best. Okay. And I tried everything. I tried

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went to doctors and then car practice and active pressures and yoga teachers and

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breath therapists. And, you know, I finally ended up with someone who did some spiritual healing,

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some shamanic work. And here's where we get a little bit into the body because the legs

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carry us forward. That's hum. And I have the thought that if I really carried myself forward,

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then it would hurt my family. I was the eldest son of a widowed mom, you know, and all the started

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a month before I moved away from home, you know? And so I ended up with that healer who helped me be

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aware of the thoughts that going forward hurts. It hurts other people, or it might hurt myself.

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And did some breath work and some hands on work and then whatever, then I went back

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to other therapies and they worked better because I cleared up some of the thoughts.

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You know, I blessed my mom as she could take care of herself and I can take care of myself and

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the energy cleared up and the therapies that I went to before actually helped this time.

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And so healed completely from a chiropractor that said, "Oh, you'll have that pinch

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nerve through the rest of your life, you know?" Well, here it is almost 50 years later. And

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I'll admit that I like cruise control and cars because if I sit there driving for three hours

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without moving, yes. You know, my sciatica thought probably. But I healed because I changed the belief.

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You know, talking to myself and that's why I like that book because it's some of it is journaling

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with the different parts of yourself. Talking, you know, and talking to yourself. I even

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ever shared, I love it. I mean, people love it too. It's, of course, I talk to myself. Sometimes I need

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expert advice. Okay. That's a bumpestic here as well, isn't it? Sure. I didn't have a video

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as it probably is. So, yeah, that's why I'm really excited about the work. Even, you know, I really

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got into this because I started and then I was in physical pain. I mean, if I walked a quarter

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mile, I had to sit down and rest twice. Now, at the age of 24, that's not really that good.

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But the pain, whether the pain to it helped me focus on healing, you know, so I think that even,

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even whether it's a disease or an accident or an illness or whatever, the end result of that is

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that we focus on healing. Exactly. This is a fascinating subject, Steven. And you know what?

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We're quickly running out of time unfortunately. Oh, no. I can't believe it. But, you know,

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one of the things that strikes me, I'll be apart from your passion obviously, and your

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lifelong love of this. And the fact that you got into it so early as well, and you've had, you know,

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these, I guess, feelings and the way that you've worked through your thoughts and using physical

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as well as, you know, the spiritual connection with yourself. The thing that amazes me, I think,

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really, is about when people nowadays think about this stuff, I think they throw it, they throw

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terms at it, really, you know, mindset, for instance, right? Then what's the other one they also do?

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You know, in other words, they've got a positive mindset or whatever else. You know, you mentioned about

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having the, you know, like a positive thought and manifesting something. Now, as well, I've heard

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that mentioned quite a few times actually, probably, you know, in people who are coaches or something

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all that. Because they're trying to get someone on a certain plane, aren't they? To actually think

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positively and again, another phrase, you know, to think positively about something. But from what

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you're saying, that really does work. But I think for a lot of people, maybe most of us, we need to be

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shown how to do that, right? And that's where a shaman comes in because how would I know?

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Instead of that, you see, yeah, you seem to know when you were young, you seem to know how to become

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positive in that way or not even necessarily, probably didn't think of it that way. You just wanted

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something, manifested it, whatever. Right. I don't want to get rid of this light in my life. Yeah,

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all right. And yeah, they need to be, people might need to be shown it, but they can also experience it.

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And that's the best way to learn. You know, somebody wants to learn techniques of,

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so retrieval, getting part of your soul back, which you might have lost. If you want to learn how to do it,

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first, you need to experience it being done. Yeah, I think, but I think it's having it done to

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oneself, right? So, I mean, this is the, this is the point being, I was going to say patient, it's

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not a patient thing, is it? But, you know, coming to you, if I came to you and said, I've heard something

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about souls and regaining parts of my soul that I've lost or for whatever reason, I've read it

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somewhere rather, you know, I think that I just can't even figure that. So this is why talking to a

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Charmin, the shaman, as we might say over here, it seems to be like, it could really, really change the way

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people think, couldn't it? It can change the way people think, the way they feel and the way they experience

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life, a new experience. That's why I love that. A master of ecstasy. You can experience something

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great, greater than yourself. I, you know, even, you know, I do at times, you know, teach channels,

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you know, how to channel will. I think that healing thoughts book, part of it is why and how shamanism

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work, rather than just putting it out there, you know, as far as this is what to do and this is how to do it.

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That's why I love the Hawaiian shamanism because it's, you use whatever works. You know, you

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want to ever work is your tool. We don't care if anybody approves of it or well, you know, one

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preset is do no harm, but rather than that, go to town. If it works, it works. So why, you know, and so

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we don't have to discount other people and other therapies and whatever else is just if they work,

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I'll use them if they don't. No, no. I know during one of my workshops, we're supposed to pick an

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animal and merge with the animal and find out about the animal and talk to the animal and, you know,

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I use the shamanic tool in the one right at hand. I call the front desk of the hotel and they say,

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what breeders now? Greg shamanic tool. Exactly. Yeah, 21st century, right? Or 20th century whichever

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I love it. Well, here you go, Stephen, we have very, very, very much running out of time now. So

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I need to ask you this question though, before we finish up. I suppose when somebody finishes

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reading, healing thoughts, you know, and thinks about it and go either they've come to it as a complete

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beginner, you know, like say I would or they're really into, you know, the way that this works and,

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you know, they picked it up because they want to learn more from you. I mean, what would you

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most like either of those factions to take away from the book, you know, after they've read it? How do

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you want the newbie to feel at the end? And more in control of their lives.

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There we can, we can be more in control of our lives. If it's like, well, wait, I've created this so I can

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create something different. Oh, I have a relationship with that thought. I don't like that relationship. I

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can change the relationship. I have a relationship with my feelings, you know, and there used to be one

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one well-known speaker is it just tell your feelings how to feel.

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You know, so this is more of an easier way, a more natural way to do it without all the fight, the

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internal fight. So the book, I guess it encourages sparring but not fighting. You know, well,

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what about your thoughts? What do you think about your feelings? What do you feel about your thoughts?

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What do you know? What are you creating? And can you create something different? And that's what

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people will get out of the book. It's like, I am in control. I do have control. Even within illness,

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you know, there's, I mean, let's be honest, things get worse with stress and they get better without

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the stress. So what if you can relax and change the thoughts and be more at peace? Then whatever you've

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got going on gets better. Will it heal? Yes, no. You know, I die at or whatever else sometimes works.

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I'm in my wife with told she'd be in a wheelchair by the age of 40 because of arthritis.

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And now we're out there playing pickleball a couple of times a week, you know, 30 years later and

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it was like, wait a second, you're in control. You've got some choices. So that's really one. I

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want people to get out of it. You've got a life. It's yours. Yeah, it's amazing. I'm actually going to

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take that away with me because I love the idea of this about people I think as well. Don't realize,

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you know, that they could be in control of themselves. I think they think they're like that pinball

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in the pinball machine, right? Just bouncing around other people are in control of them. And,

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you know, to a certain extent, maybe that is true depending on where you are, but you're certainly

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in control of yourself. If you, you know, think about it quite a lot. Sometimes we have a little

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bit of learning to do a little learning curve, you know, I mean, I've sabotaged myself sometimes

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in the past and then I realized, wait, I'm a one of sabotaging it. I'm a master. Yeah. Okay. I'm in control

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about. Well, I'm pretty good at it too. Well, the sabotage with the control. Well, both, you know,

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I just didn't realize how I was controlling it. So I, um, well, and now we're here. Yeah.

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We're talking. So, and two books later, and I've got a third one coming out to probably in a year,

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having to do with more physical. It's called the thought body, you know, thought body. I mean,

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because you can tell I've been a little wrapped up with the parts. Yeah. Well, no, that's great. And,

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you know, I love that point you made about the sabotage as well. You know, we always, you know,

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I find that fascinating. I stop myself sometimes. And I think, hang on a second. I do that. This is

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what this is going to happen. But anyway, okay. Well, unfortunately, we have now run out of time,

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so let's, it's been wonderful. I thank you for, for being open for just being you, you know, thank you

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very much. I was saying this, you know, I've really enjoyed it. And your book is Healing Thoughts,

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Practical Charminism for Healthy Living. So Steven Rogat, thank you very much for joining me on Author

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Conversations today. It's been great to see you. But I tell you what, before you go, let us know what

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your social media is all about. How can people contact you? Where can they buy the books, etc? Well,

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I'm a website for now because it might change, but who knows? It's Creative Thought. You know,

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there's that thought thing again. But the book is actually available anywhere. Whether it's Amazon,

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Barnes and Noble, your favorite bookstore or seller can order it. I mean, it's available anywhere.

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So that's my son. I finally got copies of it. Well, you order it. It takes three days. If the

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author orders it in bulk, they strap it to a snail and grab a whip. You know. So,

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yeah, anywhere. Amazing. Well, this is Steven. It has been absolutely wonderful talking to you.

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And I love your positivity. Yeah, I wish, you know, I wish we could speak longer,

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be play bridge to you. Exactly. Exactly. Well, maybe we'll speak again soon, hopefully,

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with your next book that's coming out or even the other ones as well. Yes, it's been wonderful.

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It's been, yeah, I actually did a radio interview about the second book just last week about the ghosts.

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Well, Halloween, you know. Yeah, the song. It's wonderful. We're on a pleasure meeting you. Pleasure

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talking with you. And you as well, Steve. Brilliant. Thank you very much.

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If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more author conversations here.

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