She Turned Heartbreak, Addiction & Recovery Into Powerful Poetry with Pamela Wallace

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[Music]

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Hi there and welcome to Author Conversations.

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As usual, I'm Chris Dabbs and today I'm joined by poet Pamela Wallace.

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Now Pamela describes herself as a midwestern girl for Missouri, right?

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Whose life has taken her from the red dirt of Arizona to the white sands of Florida's

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Gulf Coast. Lovely. Along the way she's experienced love, heartbreak, motherhood,

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addiction, recovery, reinvention. And you know what?

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Everything else in between. Rather than writing a conventional memoir though,

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Pamela chose poetry as a vehicle to tell her story.

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Her collection, "You Go Girl Poetry" is funny, brutally honest,

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deeply relatable, and celebrates the resilience that comes from simply refusing to give up.

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Pamela, after that introduction, welcome to author conversations.

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Thank you. That's very, very kind of you to refer to me that way.

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[Laughter]

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Well, hopefully you recognize yourself, right?

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But before we talk about the book itself, tell us about

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the woman behind the poems. Who is Pamela Wallace today?

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Okay. Well, I live alone and I have one daughter and

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basically I have followed some really wonderful women, women poets,

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and they've inspired me over my life and that's why I even wrote the book to begin with.

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But I can tell you a little bit about how I came to write this book.

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Chapter one is husbands with an S. Chapter two, I'm a single girl.

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Chapter three, you go girl. Chapter four, my daughters ugly me and mother nature and God

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and Buddha two. That's chapter four. Chapter five is my daughters ugly badass habit.

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Chapter six is my ugly badass habit. Chapter seven is a fresh start.

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Chapter eight is wrinkles. Chapter nine is another fresh start and chapter ten is yet another

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fresh start. So that's pretty much it kind of sums up a little bit for you there. When I was younger,

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I was in high school and the fifth, I'll tell you how it all started too anyway.

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I was in like a high school class and the teacher told us to read a write a poem about Easter.

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And so I wrote a poem about Easter and I gave it to her and she stepped on my desk and

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embarrassed me terribly by kind of accusing me that I must have copied that from somewhere and it

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really hurt me. And that's the first poem I ever wrote and I thought what? It was called what

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Easter means to be at 15 and I actually have it in my book and in one of my chapters.

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But I was really hurt by that but then I finally realized I could turn it into a compliment

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and because that you know she thought somebody else wrote that poem so that might have been

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good thing. And so then when I was 17, I wrote another poem in my English class about well I can

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read that one too if you want. Yeah that'd be great. Yeah. When I was 17, I wrote my second poem and

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it was like I was writing it because I thought my English teacher might send me to a counselor and

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help me. But I wrote I think I'll skip the college life. I think I'd rather be a wife. Diamond ring,

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white dress and lace will have a car in our own place. I know I have to clean and cook before

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there's time to read a book but still I can't wait for the time wedding instead of school bells

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chime. And I really didn't that was I would have a high school boyfriend you know and I really didn't

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want to get married. I wanted to go to college but I kind of had to talk myself into this situation

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because I wanted to be free from my strict dad and you know have a car. So that was kind of my second

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entry into poetry and I thought my teacher might send me to a counselor and say talk her into

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going to college but nothing happens. So I married my first husband and then I was married four times

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and so my first poem in my book is called Husbands. It's called Getting to Know Me. Husband number one

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I knew him but I didn't know me. Husband number two I didn't know him and I still didn't know me.

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Husband number three I thought I knew him. I thought I knew me. Husband number four we know ourselves

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and we knew each other and then we both changed. So that was my that was my first maybe you know

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30, 40 years in a nutshell. Wow but that's okay I mean you know well I mean yeah I think if you want

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to go through the chapters I mean you know and explain how each one kind of you know got each

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where you are that's great. Yeah please do. And also when you feel like adding in some poetry

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yeah we'd love to hear it too. Yeah. Because that kind of tells it all you know my next chapter after

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Husbands of course was called I'm a single girl. I was finally single and it was like 50 or something.

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I could do everything I could I could think of the doing I'm single I'm single and so I started dating

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and that was fun. So I simply loved my lifestyle now I hope it hangs around a while but if it has

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to journey on I hope it will return and so then it went on a date my a real date you know it's a

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single girl we went to the symphony and I do not like the symphony it's like you know it was not my

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thing you have to clap a million times for the director keeps coming out and clapping and clapping

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clapping but anyway we had a potty break you know they had the break to go to the bathroom and when I

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was a bathroom and I wrote this I thought of this poem and I went back to my seat so I'll read you

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the poem it's called bathroom break at the symphony she sit flush touch of blush wash hands check out

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tan teeth floss lips gloss context rinse hot breast men's brush hair back to chair he whip it out

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let it spout tucking neat back to seat and that's kind of our first day so that was kind of one of

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the crazy things but as a single girl I got to I got to get in living I always wanted to live in an

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apartment so I got to live in an apartment and I was so exciting so the man upstairs he smokes the

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guards and I didn't like the guards and I played rock music and he didn't like rock music but somehow

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we became friends and we became friends for life you know he's he was always my friend all the way

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through even though I went through many many other things and so forth but he asked me what my

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apartment was like I said he could come and see he smiled you should be more careful for him

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finding down men like me I said but your professor professor and I think your smile is nice

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he smiled you can't trust professors you better take my advice I said come down and talk to me let's

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see what kind of friends will be and he did and we are and that was our friendship for many many many

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many years until he passed on so I wrote a poem and this I'm not going to go on and on to it but

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this is the poem I wrote about everyone I fell in love with them I'll kiss you you'll kiss me

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goodbye every morning and I'll hug you alone every night and if we ever quarrel we'll quick make it

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right and we'll walk on white beaches beneath the pink sky and I'll never get old and you'll never die

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but then later in my life you know well yes you got older and yes I got older and yes you did die

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but you're still on my stand and there in my pink sky and that was my my real love in my life I guess

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and that didn't you know didn't last forever but that was a good one I always wanted to travel to

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the beaches and to the you know travel around and never had gotten to travel anywhere so I wrote this

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poem well my budget bear should save that dime and my st. Louis guy won't wait this time the highway

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spas my beetles slow oh I don't care I'm gonna go south so I sold my coats in my winter suits my red

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love seat and all my boots just me my clubs flip flaps in car I planted my soul on the Gulf of

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Navarre and I moved to Florida the clear blue sky and I felt for a fisherman there and and so I wrote

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and he he went away so it's a beware Florida fisherman they tend to sail away I wrote I looked down

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and find I'm tangled mangled in your line up you look and ever so gently unscrew your hook from

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my heartstrings but still it stings a couple of tears on my beach tile who am I gonna dance with now

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who's gonna call me sugar I can read you one more about it yeah please yeah yeah yeah so this is a

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kind of a long one but I'll read it fast Jimmy Green Jimmy Green smiled at Pamela Jean on a beach

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where the Gulf was Emerald Green and the Sanford's widest her st. Louis snow he nodded she nodded

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they both said hello each day or to that he sat by where she sat an hour each day then he'd go on his

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way but finally her stay ended and the guy she befriended stopped by for run one last chat with son

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the kiss their first kiss if she hugged him goodbye then she drove away from that wonderful guy

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they emailed a email to bed and he called once or twice she liked things he said she got he was

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nice then they sort of lost track and so that was that months later passed and then back to

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Dustin again she emailed a note heading south all she wrote he said when your year will go out for a

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beer that's how Pamela Jean came to know Jimmy Green if it had gone farther if he'd asked for her hand

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she may have accepted his gold wedding band such a perfect fit for a poetry scene a rhyming

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last name Pamela Jean Green so and then the proposal was he offered me an engagement ring I said I'd

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rather have a car today I'm ringless and carless so far no one of the strongest messages I think in

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your collection of poetry and the ones that we've been hearing so far that you're just throwing in

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there because you're so prolific listen to this I mean one of the strongest messages I think

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is that it's never too late I think that's the point isn't it to begin again right and I think a

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lot of us are so scared of change like that you know my gosh what am I going to do I can't date

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again I can't do this I can't I can't move to a different city I can't move to a different state I

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can't move to a different neighborhood I can't move to a different building a floor whatever it is

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right I mean what would you say to someone who's really convinced that their best years are behind

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them and they're done well I would say number one the 50s are the best when I was 50 I mean I started

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being I started living when I was 50 really because I was married all those times I had a my last

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husband I had a corporation we ran it for 20 years and it was pure work for 20 years so you know it wasn't

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when I left him that's when I was a single girl so no 50s are great and 60s are great I'm seven and

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my 70s now and they're great and I'm not quite in my 80s but so far it's been fun you know you just

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you just have to get out there and enjoy it so I don't know I really I had we had some bad times

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of course very bad times with my with my daughter she she had some stuff and then one time I

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I met a man when I was single this is the kind of a thing that people have to be careful of because

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he I go I go to breakfast all the time by myself and he was always very breakfast and he met me

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in the parking lot one time after like a year going to breakfast all the time and ask me if I'd

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like to take a ride in this brand new car about a real hot car and I I said okay that'll be fun I got

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in his car and he he started attacking me he started you know come attacking me and not attacking me

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but wanting me to do things and I I jumped out of his car and I left him but I wrote a little I wrote a

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long poem it's called the lowercase guy and it was a he it was terrible but at the end I wrote this

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little sit stands up dad's words reigned my dad was very strict so dad's words reigned in my years he

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preached to me in my teen years stand up straight turn down that noise and do not get in cars with boys

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and that was kind of like really reminded me of what I just been through you know it's kind of a

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little upbeat thing really it's supposed to be upbeat it's not really I got away from that guy

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good right gosh and after a year as well being you know going for breakfast in the same place I mean man

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yeah I we never talked to anything I just always you know it's always eating breakfast and he was and

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but anyway it was just a it was one of those things again those are things you run into you know in

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your life when you're single especially so but it didn't really I turned it into kind of a little

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sweet thing about my dad saying do not get in cars with boys and that committed now that's really good

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no that that's great it's a great way to do it right I mean I suppose you know reading these back

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though it all these memories must come flooding back because you know they're all based on the life

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and all these things aren't they so how do you deal with that then I mean it's I hope that it's good

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to deal to to be you know what happens is I I've been running poetry well I've been running

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poetry since I was 15 and I I learned from Anne Lamont I read her book bird by bird and I learned

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that you can just just go ahead and tell stuff about your life you know go ahead and express and

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that she did that animal not just tells it all she's wonderful and she was one of my my idols and

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I started thinking when I was even a young girl I could just tell whatever I went my poetry you

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know I'm not going to worry about it it helps it actually helps and then read Judas Beorce

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she is another poet and she has written her whole life she wrote me like at 40 at 50 at 60 she's

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a great famous poet Judas Beorce and she's written all the way through to you know 70s and now

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she's 90 and she's written she's written another book and it's called making the best of what's left

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fair enough isn't that great and that's kind of how I feel you know just make make the best of what's

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left and keep going you know and that's kind of I really admired her and then my mom was why the

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real you know mentor for me and you go girl that's why I got this the thing you go girl she's always

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telling me that she was she was a poet too and all my poems are in rhyme basically it just helps

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when I rhyme it just helps me to explain myself and I think it came when I was a little bitty girl

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my mom read me these book the golden books I don't you know anybody hearing this would even know

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what they are the little story books that rhyme and like this is my house and I am the mommy my

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daughters are Annabelle Betsy and Bonnie they good little girls do just what I say I put in their

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coats they go out to play daddy is Billy he works in the city he's got a new car isn't it pretty

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those are the kinds of poems that were in this these little golden books anybody who knows golden

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books would know and so my mom read me those the whole time you know I was little and she and I both

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when we got adults we started writing and rhyme all the time and I think that could have been from

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you know that history I don't know but I'm grateful whatever it was and the poem the run I like to keep

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things upbeat no matter what happens that's the way I am in my life so I try to always and well my life

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has this fine right now you know and I'm 79 you know and it's fine it's fun and I'm happy

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and I've been through hell and back quite a few times there's a restaurant there's a bar in Florida

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called hell and back now don't tell me you're regular there's every day we know about that right

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well but I have to say hang on a second 79 wow I mean you are just full of life right you know

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and I think you really are someone that other people can admire and certainly follow in in your

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footsteps I mean it's great I mean but you know it hasn't all been good as you say right I mean the

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book it touches on addiction and recovery and things like that I mean what role did that you know

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help you in writing really I mean and in your own healing as well yeah it I've had a lot of ups and

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downs but the best one I had my big company and my had my daughter who's a beautiful person I

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loved her dearly she was my office manager she was a great office manager when I was working and

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she came into my office and closed the door and said mom I'm leaving I'm going to the hospital I'm

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addicted to heroin and I'm I didn't even know what heroin was I remember those stories of

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Sonatti knows men jumping out of windows because they were heroin addicts from early you know I didn't

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know what to think and but anyway she she went to the hospital and she came back but she was a

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heroin addict for quite a while you know it's not not like you can just go to the hospital and stop

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you know it was pretty it was pretty tough very tough and that's called my daughter's ugly badass

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habit and I think what happened was I wrote about that I wrote poetry I rhymed her whole our whole

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horrible experience and I think writing and well I write poetry but I think writing really you

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know does help you a little bit but I could read it a couple of things that it was really it was

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really a tough time and it was really horrible actually but she went to many many rehabs you know

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rehab number one two three four five six seven blah blah and I finally I was asking doctors for help

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I was doing everything I could and she was she went she didn't want to be that way but she'd go

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off and be that way so finally I wrote a couple poems that helped me a lot and I was mad at God

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for not helping not answering my prayers and helping me and so I wrote a letter I wrote a kind of

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an angry letter to God and rhyme of all things but I didn't see if I can find it it was really

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but anyway it helped me through her addiction it really did and I didn't see if I can find it

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I think here's the one I think maybe you see a Lord you know so I don't worry don't I mean at the end

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of the day I think that that's if you can find it it's great I mean you know I think wow that must be

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a terrible thing to happen I've been fortunate that you know none of my kids have done that but yeah

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coping with it dealing with it and then having poetry to help you through it and perhaps your

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daughter too would have been really good how did you get on did you find it yeah I found it I

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was mad at God because you know I keep praying to God you know take care of it very back and you know

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so I wrote you know please please you know let me see well see oh Lord please help my daughter um

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I know there's you to turn to Lord I wish she would that's what I pray she doesn't seem to get you

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though she tried but hasn't found your way the drugs are God who kills her pain and blocks her guilt

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from shame and sin please track her down Lord show yourself open your arms and pull her in and then

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I was so mad at God I was like I know you come to those who ask I know the rule that you stick to

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forget back to you can get off of that subject my daughter she finally recovered we had a once

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she allowed me to write her story so that other families and parents we have children who go into

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drugs and have problems will maybe get motivated from it a little bit because it ended up good she got

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off that she's happy with her dogs and she's a wonderful daughter she's my best friend but she was

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able to God I guess God helped her because I don't know what else did but somehow she got off of it so

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we're happy but it kind of can tell you how horrible it can be especially if a parent reads that

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they will relate to it anyway that's over with and I had a ugly bad ass habit too I started my cousin

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took us the gambling boats came to St. Louis and you know that you know I my cousin took us all

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and showed us how to put coins in the slot and this and this so much fun it was on Mother's Day

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I said we'll come back again maybe next Mother's Day try that again but we came back a lot more

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often the boat at that time there was that actual boat that went down the Mississippi river and you

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could go all the loser people would go in the upper deck and and just enjoy the boat ride and then

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the people on the bottom decks would be gambling away you know spending their money and so I spent a

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lot of time on the loser deck when you run out of money you go to the loser deck I do you enjoy the

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view right instead of yeah I actually came moments about a really wonderful for motions for one of

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my companies that I had just sitting there thinking so it was a plus that way you know yeah so silver

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lining silver lining yeah yeah yeah every well wow yeah I think the Mississippi has this I think

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it's quite well known for those floating casino kind of yes well what happened that was way

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long ago when they first when gambling first started you know that kind of gambling in our town

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but since then they've built tons of hardcore casinos where there's no view no loser deck you go in

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and you spend as much money as you can you go out broke you know it's pretty much the norm

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but I will tell you an interesting little story about gambling I spent too much money in gambling

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and I wanted to stop and it was really hard it's really hard to stop because it's fun you know when

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you win but I wrote a poem about my ugly badass habit that was my chapter and you know it really

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you know I had to go to cognitive therapist to try to stop you know because it was too much fun and

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it blanks you from being lonely it blanks you from being upset about your kid anything you just

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when you're gambling it's not really a very healthy thing but I went to a cognitive therapist and

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this is an interesting piece of information I think it's because I tried everything and she she

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this little girl was a assistant said I have a question what does it feel like when you walk into a

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casino when you're walking down the parking lot into the casino and I said oh it's so exciting the

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bells are gonna ring and people and lights and I think I'll win some money and you know it's really fun

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and she's a who it takes about three minutes you know to get into the casino and so that's three minutes

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of excitement then she said what does it feel like when you're walking out you know if you lose it's

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like oh my god you know it takes about three weeks of feeling horrible that you spent money that

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you didn't have or something so I realized you know three minutes of excitement versus three weeks

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of horrible news for losing everybody loses their money and not many people really are always winners

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and so it really helped me though that one little assistant girl asking that one little question

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after I tried everything else and that was really I think really I tell people that a lot you know

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people that gamble because it's really true it's exciting when you go in but horrible when you come out

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it's a good point isn't it yeah and you do win too but you know basically it's horrible when you come out

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because most people spend too much and don't want to leave because it's kind of fun they've

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high notes a couple things I think my books appeal I thought my books would appeal appeal to mostly

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women but they seem like they've peeled a lot of men my I sent it to all my friends and you know my

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my information and they bought my books and it's like the men are just relate to it as much as

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the women but I would think that you know I don't know why but I sent it to all my perfect friends

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and my imperfect friends I thought the perfect friends are going to think I'm a bad girl of it

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they all liked it too so you know when you get older and you go through stuff everybody does

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but I wrote one called wrinkles this is about getting older so wrinkles peel

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tuck liposuckum you know and then I wrote one about menopause because women go to menopause I don't

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if you realize that or not but you know or have experienced what women do but it makes you real real

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hot and so I was in a really cold restaurant and I was passing menopause but it's it's already passed

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but I said come on hot flash give me some this restaurant's cold and I'm so dumb I forgot to bring a

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wrap come on oh pal flash me is that I've got goosebumps on my arm come on hot flash make me warm

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even better make me hot give me everything you've got where are you hot flash what's the deal help

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me through this freezing meal why have you left me now I see you found a younger girl than me

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because I was too old

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I'm gonna tell my wife I want to think in a minute yeah exactly women relate to you that's quite funny

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actually oh get that that's awful as well isn't it so when you want the menopause to do something

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for you oh no not bad that was I was pleased but you know when you're so and it didn't work but

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then I did have it I ended up as my in my older chapter I did have a have to get a double mass

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sector me and that was a weird thing but it didn't really affect me very much it was about eight

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weeks of you know tubes in me but the last after after four weeks are actually four weeks I wrote

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this poem and this is what I did I'm on a plane to Florida for fun and to sum with my best friend

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Becky I looked like a flat-chested female athlete I feel so strong and fit I'm almost tempted to

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exercise so I it really didn't affect me that bad it was really amazing you know that was

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another part of my life but then my friend wanted me to read this one she loved she liked one that

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I've been single still all those times so you know it's like I went on the dating thing for one time

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and I met I had a meetup you know with one of those dating sites you know and I wrote as soon

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as he entered I could feel he was nice and he is he's smart attractive wealthy and yet humble he's

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a nice hugger no children no he's married I understand that's always the problem

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I didn't tell me that so that was kind of a you know one that I thought was kind of

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and then my my one that my girlfriend wants me to read she liked this one my best who's called

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uncorked the cork on my bottle of dreams is just popped some bubble tip walls and just stopped

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others land on my skin I let them soak in but some land on the tip of my time those I swallow real fast

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like a sweet honeydew and hope they come true like woman that's a woman thing you know yeah yeah

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pretty well listen Pamela we're quickly running out of time which is really shame because I think we're

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having all we're having a great time there listeners and viewers I think I'm sure you'd agree make

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sure that you leave a a comment down below and a request so when I'm gonna seize it then no no

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not you you readers and your listeners and viewers and I mean you won last phone my very last

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phone I was gonna say yeah please leave us with something okay it's called well first of all I

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wrote my obituary it was like I tried to read diet gave up sugar and bread which had donuts now

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that I'm dead but that was one of my little obituary but this is the one I wrote for one I died

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eternal life once I was a seedling then it became a sprout sometimes I was trampled sometimes I

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suffered drought one day in April one day in April raindrop blossom made a pretty pink and birds and

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bees came by my door to share a nectar drink a last-old mother nature pulled me back to underground guess

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what I sprouted up again can't keep my spirit down there you go I do you know what I believe

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yeah exactly I believe that too that we probably know about can't keep your spirit down

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Pamela Wallace thank you so much for joining me on author conversation

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I'm reading you thank you it's been fantastic isn't it I love it well your you-go-go poetry is an

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honest funny and moving collection that reminds us of life that's really fun girl there you go and

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you know what well you I think it's okay to have humor vulnerability and resilience like you've

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shown that even lives harder chapters can become something beautiful it's been a real pleasure hearing

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the poems and the stories behind them as well and basically listeners viewers if you want to connect

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with Pamela or pick up a copy of you go girl poetry you'll find all the links in the description

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down below if you've enjoyed today's conversation and you want that book please like subscribe and

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share this episode with someone who loves powerful storytelling so until next time I've been

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Chris Dabbs thanks for watching all the author conversations and thank you Pamela Wallace for joining

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us thank you bye bye if you enjoyed this conversation you can watch more author conversations here

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[Music]