Does God Mean Exactly What He Says? | Dr Cliff Loriot | Author Conversations

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Hi and welcome to author conversations. As usual, I'm Chris Dabbs and today,

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I'm joined by Dr. Cliff R. Loirot, a biblical scholar whose academic work focuses on old

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testament studies, prophetic literature and biblical interpretation. His latest book, The Sovereign

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Lord Yahweh, has spoken, he has ruled like a lion, takes a fresh look at one of the most

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discussed passages in the book of Amos. In it, Dr. Loirot explains and challenges long-held

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assumptions about the text, and argues that Amos was making a powerful case for the clarity

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and singular meaning of God's communication. So drawing on decades of study, advanced

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biblical languages and extensive research, including an intriguing investigation into the behavior

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of lions, Loirot offers readers a new perspective on prophecy, interpretation and the nature

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of divine revelation. So Dr. Loirot, welcome to author conversations. It's great to meet you.

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Thank you for my pleasure. I'm looking forward to this because you know, I think you're

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going to get into some really good detail and listeners are really going to learn something from

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this, but we'll go through everything that we need to, I guess, but your book focuses on Amos

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Psalm 3 verses 3 to 8, right? That's correct. Yeah, so why did this specific package, sorry,

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passage even, become well so important to you? Because it's quite small, right?

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Well, everyone comes to the scriptures with preconceived notions. These are mine.

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My father was a linguistic genius. He graduated five beta-capoe in linguistics from the University

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of Pennsylvania. He was a critical scholar and taught me to think critically. I also learned a lot

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about linguistics, especially the relationship between form and content in communication.

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In high school, I took a course on how to study the Bible. It seemed to be a logical way to understand

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the scriptures. I later found out it was an introduction to dispensationalism. So I became a

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dispensationalist. Dispensationalists claim to interpret the Bible literally, but that's a confusing

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term. It's better to say we interpret the scriptures according to the normal laws of language.

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These rules apply to both literal and figurative statements and yields a single literal meaning

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for both when they are used correctly. In seminary, I was taught the univocal nature of language,

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which means that statements can have only one meaning within a given grammatical and historical

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contact. So context is everything when determining meaning. Most of Christendom applies old testament

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prophecies to the church because they believe that God replaced Israel with the church

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when the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. They claim that God meant one thing for the Old

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Testament audience, but that it means something different for us. So they interpret Old Testament

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prophecies allegorically rather than literally. Finally, most biblical scholars consider Amos 3,

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3 through 8 to be a prophetic defense. They say this is the right view because it is the majority

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view, but this is a logical fallacy. Their view of Amos 3, 3 through 8 contradicts both Amos's intent

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and their approach to prophecy in general. So I viewed Amos 3, 3 through 8 linguistically as

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the communication of messages in various forms, literally and figuratively in accordance with

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the normal laws of language, and univocally as having only one meaning in his grammatical and historical

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contact. Wow, that's a lot to unpack there, I think, for lay people. Okay, let's have a think about

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this. Okay, so what you're saying is that some people look at the Old Testament and they take it

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allegorically. So in other words, it's not necessarily meant to be true, it's kind of like a lessons kind

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of thing, I guess, right? That's correct. Yeah. And so what you're saying as well, obviously with

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everything the New Testament is that we are supposed to be taking that literally, and that's this kind

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of thing that you have been studying in terms of making sure that the linguistics are understood

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as they are written. Is that right? That's correct. Focusing on single meaning, the normal laws,

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using the normal laws of language, and recognizing the univocal nature of language, which means that

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a term or statement can only have one meaning in a given context. So the most of Christian

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and Dome not only interprets these Old Testament prophecies allegorically, but they do so in applying

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it to the church. They say that the Old Testament prophecies to Israel are now applied to the church

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in a spiritual kingdom, not a literal messianic kingdom here on this earth. Okay, yeah, again,

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I mean, I think our conversation is really interesting here, but it would kind of be as a journalist,

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it would be wrong with me to not ask you one glaring question to me as a layperson in this respect,

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right? Is it, and I'm sure you've come across this before, this is meant with no disrespect,

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or whatsoever, because, well, you'll see. I mean, basically, if we're talking about text that is

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X amount of years old, okay, whichever you want it to be, you know, for the Old Testament being

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for very, very, very old, ancient, even more, to the New Testament being, you know, necessarily younger.

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How do we know that the translations are correct? Are we, are we relying on the fact that it's

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supposed to be God's, oh, sorry, when I say supposed to be, is that it's God's word, as some people

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would say, that therefore is correct. Right. Okay, to answer that question, we have to say that in

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the original manuscripts, you, what are called autographs, that were self-written by the prophets and

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other authors, that they're the Holy Spirit made sure that they, everything was true and correct.

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However, in the thousands of years since the original manuscript were written, errors have been

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introduced into the text. Now, determining the original meaning involves a process called

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exegesis, that is, bringing out the meaning of the original meaning of the text. And Douglas Stewart

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has a book on Old Testament exegesis that goes through it step by step, and Gordon Fee has a book

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on New Testament exegesis, where he goes through it step by step. And one of the steps is to

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confirm the wording of the text, and the process you use there is textual criticism. For the New

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Testament, you rely on the number of manuscripts, which have a particular reading. The more manuscripts

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have a particular reading or a way of statement, the more likely that reading is correct.

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Okay. The majority rules when it comes to New Testament textual criticism. The Old Testament

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is more subjective. You look at the context and you say, "This doesn't sound right." And so you have to

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look at the context and you can rely on some sources. There's Jerome, there's the Kumaran,

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Dead Sea Scrolls, which are probably the most reliable sources, because they come from 250 BC.

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They are the oldest manuscripts that we have. And I could go into more detail on that.

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You know, there was this theory that there were three different authors of Isaiah.

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Versa Isaiah, second Isaiah, third Isaiah. Okay. In the Kumaran Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls,

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they found a single copper scroll rolled up that had all three sections in it. And that completely

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wiped out the theory, debunked the theory that there were three different authors to the book of

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Isaiah. So that's a part of textual criticism. And like I said, there are two different approaches.

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Because we don't, the earliest, before the Kumaran manuscripts were discovered, the earliest

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manuscript Hebrew manuscript we had was from 800 AD, 800 years after Christ. That was the earliest.

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Okay. The one that we use now, the Landgrade Codex, comes from about 1000 AD. Okay. But it's

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it's the most complete. So that's what they use. That is that answer your question.

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Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, very well. Thank you.

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But I think that's what we need, right? So we need to know the context of that.

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Well, basically, the saying is that for the New Testament, you can, the number of errors

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in the New Testament and the goal of textual critics is to try to establish the original

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reading. But the num, based on the number of manuscripts they have and all the research that they've

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done, only 1% of the New Testament is questionable. And no, no major teaching is questioned. They're all

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just spelling differences and things like that. Okay. So 99% of it is accepted as being correct. Thank

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you for that excellent answer. In your research, you challenge the Common Scholar Review that

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Amos some three deaths, sorry, some three versus three to eight is mainly a, what, a prophetic

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defense, right? So what led you to question that interpretation? Well, to begin with, I was told that

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I couldn't prove my thesis because the majority view was that Amos 3, 3, 3, 3, 8 was a prophetic

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defense. But the majority isn't always right. In fact, the conviction that my thesis was correct

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grew stronger as I got deeper into my research. Writing my dissertation forced me to consider

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every view of the passage. I read everything that I could find that had been written about Amos 3,

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3, 3, 8 from as early as the late 1880s. I found so much material that I grouped the views into

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categories rather than discuss each one. I created four standalone categories and three other main

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categories with eight subcategories distributed under the three remaining categories for a total

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of 12 views. Meaning held to the prophetic defense view, but also interpreted the statements in other

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ways such as Israel's obligation to obey the law in view of their privileged status, the cause

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and effect relationship between sin and judgment and prophecy as God's way of warning about judgment.

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Others held that it explained how the prophets predicted the future by observing current events.

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In my opinion, this weakened the support for the prophetic defense view. Too many interpretations

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had nothing to do with it. Finally, it was a matter of the emperor's new close.

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I didn't intend to be the little boy who saw what others didn't see. I concluded that they were

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taught that Amos 3, 3, 3, 8 was a defense of prophetic authority and believed what they were taught

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without looking into it for themselves. I don't want to go into detail because I want people to buy

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the book, but I will say this. The scholars did not look at the textual evidence that is there.

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They assumed that certain events occurred without any evidence that they did occur. They ignored the fact

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that an oral or written defense of prophetic authority is useless and they did not consult the

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scriptures that state the true criteria for a prophetic defense.

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Wow. Yeah, I can see how you can defend that actually. I mean, your research sounds absolutely

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fascinating. One fascinating part is the research that involves the behavior of lions. I mean,

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when I read this, I just thought, wow, lions, how did that change your understanding of Amos?

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I mean, can you explain that discovery? Well, okay. Amos 3, 3, 3, 3, 8 consists of 10 paired

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messages based on their form of communication. Each conveys a single meaning. For example,

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verses three and seven both use interpersonal communication, which involves every form in which

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personal beings communicate. The content depends on the context, but the individuals have to agree

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on the specific. In verse four, the two lions use vocal nonverbal forms. In verse five,

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the trapped messages are visual. The messages in verse six are in the form of events.

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The question in Amos 3 verse four, a does a lion roar on the forest when he has no prey?

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Refers to the mature lion with a dark mane that can roar and is a skilled hunter. Scholars have

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debated for centuries whether it roars before or after it attaches prey, but since Amos is dealing

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with the form and content of communication, the question is why the lion roars? No scholar had

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tried to determine this. So I googled world's expert online behavior. He said that neither was the case

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and explained why this lion roars in this situation. So I focused on the lion's forms of communication

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and the messages they convey. The experts answer explained why the mature lion roared in Amos 3

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verse eight a. Most scholars believe that this is Yahweh, but they don't recognize that it explains

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Amos chapter one verses two a through b which revealed that Yahweh roared from Zion and from

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Jerusalem he growled. Amos then confirms the exact event when he says in verse two c through d

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and the the shepherd's pasture grounds mourn and the summit of caramel dries up. Scholars missed

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the connection between Amos 1, 2 chapter three verse four and eight a and the event on Mount

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Carmel. The lightning bolt is Yahweh's roar as the mature lion in verse three chapter three verses

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four a and eight a and the rumbling of thunder is him growling like a young lion that is captured

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pray is described in chapter three verse four b the prophets of bale are the captured pray.

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The contest that Mount Carmel in Amos 3, 8, a was an event. So verse eight b must be an event

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to maintain the pattern. It refers to Amos 3 verses one through two which recall the giving of the

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law at Mount Sinai in these two historical events Yahweh communicated the single meaning of messages.

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Well if God's name is going to have more than one meaning we couldn't obey him. Trust his promises

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be accountable for our actions or know when a prophecy is fulfilled. In Deuteronomy 4 2 Moses says

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do not add to or subtract from these commands I'm giving you just obey the commands of the Lord your

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God that I am giving you. He repeats this command in Deuteronomy 12 32. Disobedience brought the

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covenant curses. The phrase do not add to means that whatever dilutes contradicts or makes God's

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commands ineffective is not allowed and this command is the same even if it's wording is not.

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The author of Proverbs 30 verses 5 through 6 writes every word of God proves true. He is a shield to

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all who come to him for protection do not add to his words or he may rebuke you and expose you as a

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liar. Verse 5 means that we can trust him because his words only mean one thing if he promises

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protection he provides it. Verse 6 says he holds accountable those who change the meaning of his words

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because they set themselves above him as the authority regarding the meaning of his words.

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In Revelation 22 18 through 90 John writes if anyone adds anything to what is written here God will add

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to that person the plagues described in this book and if anyone removes any of the words from this

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book of prophecy God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that

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are described in this book. The changes could be textual, moral, or theological. The book of

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Revelation is about establishing God's kingdom on earth. These curses are like the ones Moses

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pronounced on those who disobey the laws that governed Israel's kingdom. Those who say that

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God's promises of an earthly messianic kingdom in the Old Testament now refer to a spiritual kingdom

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in nor the sixfold phrase 1000 years in Revelation 20 verses 1 through 6. That means the criteria

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of Revelation 22 18 through 19. Now I'd like to add something to that okay. In

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Proverbs 3 36 he says do not add to his words or he may rebuke you and expose you as a liar. When a

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person adds to God's words they are changing the meaning. This is what the serpent did in the garden

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of Eden when he was talking to Eve. He says you shall not surely die but you shall be as God's. God

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knows this and he doesn't want you to be like this. So he's keeping you from eating the very fruit that

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could make you as knowledgeable as him and Jesus says that the serpent was a liar from the beginning.

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So people who add to the interpretation or the meaning of God's word put themselves in a very

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very dangerous position. Well that goes back to the question I asked the while back doesn't it?

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So I suppose that people who were translating the books made sure because of that to be as accurate

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as possible as well. So that's another point. But yeah I mean you know otherwise I suppose you're

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right you know how would people know what to follow what to obey and what to and you know and yeah

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I know that makes it from a simplistic point of view that makes complete sense now. So I mean

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thinking about that, thinking about people, thinking about say more professional people like pastors

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or Bible teachers or seminary students or serious Bible readers. What are you hoping that they can

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get from this book? What can they then what can they add to their knowledge? Well mostly I hope the

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readers will believe that God's words only have one meaning and will be motivated to determine it

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to the best of their ability. We all have our own level. Here's what I mean. At the beach some people

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sit in deck chairs under umbrella sipping ice tea. Some walk along the shore picking up sea shells

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and bottles with notes in them. Others wait into the water and play volleyball. Some snorkels looking

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at the coral and fish. Others scuba dive and explore the sea creatures on the ocean floor.

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And some go out far from the shore and dive down deep and pressurize suits looking for treasure.

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I also want the readers to know the difference between vagueness and ambiguity.

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Vagueness means you don't know to whom or what the statement refers. Take this for example.

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He won the 2020 election. Who the "he" is depends on the speaker's political persuasion,

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which is part of the sociological context. God's word is often vague, but this provides the

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basis for progressive revelation. Ambiguity means the statement phrase or word can refer to more

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than one thing and be true of all of them, but only when the contexts are different. For instance,

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on his birthday a man took off work early. Call this wife at her workplace and said he was going

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to the house. He went home, showered and got dressed. Then he went to the house of a friend.

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They went to a restaurant called the house, ate a meal and had dessert. Both forgot their cell phones.

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Then they returned to the house of his friend and the man went back to the house where he and his

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wife lived. When he walked through the door he wound up wearing his favorite meal.

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Was the wife right to assume that he was only referring to the house where they lived?

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Yes. You could only say no if she knew all the contexts in which he would use that term.

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So to be fair, God would have to reveal all that it means by his initial statements,

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but then they would not be ambiguous. That is the case. That makes sense. That helps me a bit here.

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One of the things that I do that I have to ask is the discussion of seven examples in Amos 3

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through six is particularly interesting. What does the number seven contribute to Amos's argument?

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Usually completeness. He presents a complete set of examples. This is inductive research.

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You provide samples which is indicated by the lowercase italic N.

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Then you provide a generalization from those samples. That is in verse seven which is that since God

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created the universe to reveal himself what he is like, then he abides by the rules and principles

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that he reveals in nature. So in verse seven which is one statement, he reveals to his servants the

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prophets the clear meaning of his plans before he carries them out. Then in verse eight we get to two

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other examples which in research is the uppercase N italicize which is applying that principle

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to other examples and those are the two events. The giving of the law, a Mount Sinai which was

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the meaning of that was never questioned. Then the message given at Mount Carmel which the people

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when Yahweh answered with lightning it was a bolt out of the blue. It came from nowhere.

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Actually that's not true. It came from a storm brewing out in the Mediterranean Sea. You will

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travel lightning can travel 125 miles horizontally before striking. That happened. Recently it

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traveled a horizontal bolt of lightning. It traveled from Kansas to Dallas Fort Worth. Five states

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okay but they got the message all the people prostrated themselves to the ground and said twice

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Yahweh he is God Yahweh he is God that was the single simple message that they got from that one act.

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This is amazing amazing that the you know that science comes into it. Right it's funny excuse me

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for interrupting you but it's funny that in the eighth century BC we have an example of the modern

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scientific method of inductive research but Aristotle says every man does this every man defences

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position either through the inductive logic or inductive logic. They use it all time.

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Yeah it's kind of natural right? Yeah and he lived in the fourth century BC.

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So wow okay well Dottaloria we're coming nearly to the end here but there's one question I need

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to ask you because if it was me I'd be very happy about this right. The lion imagery right it's

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puzzled scholars as you mentioned like for centuries okay so how satisfying was it for you to

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discover evidence from an expert right that helps unlock the well the fresh understanding of that text.

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How satisfying it it just it explained the first four chapters and even the fifth chapter there's

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reference to a lion chapter five verse 19 where it says he he says the day of the Lord is like a man

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who meets a lion it runs out runs away and runs into a bear and runs into his house and puts his hand

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up against the wall of the house and is bitten by a snake you can't get away from it okay but this

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this is the lion that attacks sheep and shepherds is the Arie okay the mature lion is the Arie

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yeah and the young lion is the Kadeef okay different words for lions and how they communicate what they

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do how they behave and how they communicate but it it just it unlocked Amos see Amos was he lived out

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in the world he was a sheep herder and he grew fig trees okay so he observed nature

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but he but one of the most important things about him is that he was from Tekoa a town in

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Judah and it was known for its wisdom as a matter of fact when Absalom ran away from David to his

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father's kingdom to to his grandfather's kingdom and David refused to let him come back though he

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was his most beloved son Joe Ab went to a woman in Tekoa and convinced her to trick David through her

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wisdom she was the wise woman from Tekoa the point I'm making here is that Amos is a literary genius

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to well yeah it sounds it so if a listener then we'll have to I think we'll have to make this our

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our kind of last question here but if a listener picks up your book right before I'm reading it and

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thinks well I've never heard of Amos before wow I mean what do you hope that they take away after

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reading that that final page after this if they're new to Amos well as I said before that God

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means what he says a God says what he means and he means what he says see the book of Amos ends with

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the promise that Israel which went into captivity about 40 years after Amos prophesied that it would

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he prophesied in 760 and they went into captivity in 722 okay whatever was okay I turned 70 and

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in a couple days so I yeah um he promised in chapter 9 that these two nations would be reunited

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and they would experience untold blessing so the the point of the book is yes God is going to

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destroy the nation and he's going to take people into exile but one of these days he's going to

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reunite these all the Israelites bring them back to their land and carry out his promise because

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he made a promise to the Israelites ancestors that that he would bless all nations through Abraham's

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and descendants and the point of the book is the last statement of the book God says what he means and

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he means what he said there's that's something to finish on isn't that that really is especially what's

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uh uh our current times and things that are happening at the moment right uh well many thanks to

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you Dr Clifford oh thank you I love talking about this I mean they say that when when you write a

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PhD dissertation that it takes over your life that I can I can understand and I believe

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obviously I really do but I it's been great to talk to you Dr Loria today and thank you for joining me

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to to discuss the sovereign Lord Yahweh has spoken he has ruled like a lion we've learned some

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really interesting things from a lay person's perspective and I think from a scholarly perspective as

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well um that your colleagues across all of your um academia will will find fascinating as it's the

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fascinating exploration right of one of the bible's most debated prophetic passages oh yes yes

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and also I think a reminder of how careful scholarships such as yours can share kind of new light

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on familiar texts I think uh and you know I think you worked hard on this and well done well you'd

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like to learn if you'd like to learn more listeners and viewers then you know and find out more about

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Dr Loria's work you'll find links to the book and his author page in the description but have you

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got a website that you can tell everybody about right now yes um there's various ways to get to it

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but basically the address is all over case all one word a uth or clylf hello r-o-t dot com or just

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search for clifflorio and you'll find me all over the place exactly I've got no perfects in that case

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so it's author cliffloriot dot com right that is correct brilliant okay well listen thank you again

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for joining me uh I really found it fascinating and I'm going to go and try and find something out

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I think about the lion and the communication and all of that if yeah and I feel like such a layperson

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here obviously I really do but I think you've helped me to understand something at least so I hope

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that people who are listening and viewing who who come to this in a much more educated fashion

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or actually go to a way get much more out of it I'm sure they will so if you've enjoyed this conversation

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listeners and viewers then please subscribe of course leave a review and share the episode with

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fellow readers and students of scripture and make sure that you leave a comment because Dr Loirot

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would love to be able to see those and go on to you yeah exactly so until next time thanks for

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listening to author conversations with me christavs and well there we are Dr Loirot, thanks again and I

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hope we meet again soon yes thank you i'm looking forward to it thanks bye bye

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if you enjoyed this conversation you can watch more author conversations here

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