Trauma Doesn’t End With You: You Need to Know About Your Roots

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Hello and welcome to author conversations.

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I'm Chris Dabbs and today I'm joined by author, therapist and hypnotherapy expert Zeta

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Thomelin to discuss her book The Trauma Effect, exploring and resolving inherited trauma.

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Now, in this book, which sounds fascinating, Zetta explores the idea that trauma doesn't

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simply disappear with time, which is kind of what we all hope, right?

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But it can echo through families and across generations, shaping emotions, behaviors,

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fears, and you know what, even our sense of identity.

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So, drawing on both professional experience and deeply personal family history, the book

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kind of examines inherited trauma, secrecy within families, memory, illness, shame, and

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the stories we carry, often without fully realising it.

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And I think having looked at some of this book, I'm pretty guilty of some of this, I think.

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Now, Zeta spent many years working in hypnotherapy and therapeutic practice, and currently

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serves as a chair of the British Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists alongside a number

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of other leading roles within the field.

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So Zeta, you know what you're talking about here, don't you?

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So, Zeta, thank you for joining me.

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How are you today?

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I'm good.

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Thank you, Chris, and thank you for having me on today to talk about my work.

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No problem at all.

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I'm really looking forward to this.

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I think it's going to be fascinating.

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So, okay, so for people who hear the phrase "inherited trauma" for the first time, I think

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we need to unpack this really.

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I mean, what does that actually mean?

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Well, when we grow up in a family, we learn about the world from the family we've gone

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into.

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We like a blank canvas, and they give us information on map to navigate reality.

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That family, things were happened to it, and that's what we've formed.

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From the kind of behavioural patterns and responses, so it may be an event has happened

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to generations back, but it's informed the behaviours of those parents that then they pass

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down the line, and there comes a point where you need to make those stop.

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So it can be things like guilt or blame or shame.

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It can even be attitudes to health.

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Because I did something wrong.

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I carried guilt for something that's happened in my family.

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I didn't get it right, and therefore I deserve to be ill.

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And then the next generation, if I get something wrong, I deserve to be ill.

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Or guilt not being there for somebody who perhaps commits suicide.

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When a family becomes very overprotective and that passes down the line, it's interesting

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that we can absorb such serious things through just absorbing information as we grow up.

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I deserve, I've been bad, I deserve to be punished.

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But guilt within a family, there are so many different traumas that can affect a family.

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It could be suicides, obviously one of the most common ones, sad that that is to say.

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But there are families around the world where someone has been murdered or raped, or there's

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the other side, or being the perpetrator of a crime.

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And in your family, someone has been convicted for murder, for example.

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So you're going to have a huge shame in that family that you're going to perhaps carry

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from generation to generation because you've learned that behaviour from your parents,

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and then it's passed on to you, or from your grandparents to your parents, deep shame,

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or moving towards blame very quickly in a form of self-protection.

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So there are so many ways in which we can learn behaviour and then pass it on.

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Poor boundaries, not protecting ourselves properly.

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Or caring for a wounded parent, so if something's happened to a parent, you become their

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carer.

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I mean, I'm sure you've encountered this perhaps in your world, that if there's a parent who's

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physically ill or mentally ill or dealing with some past tragedy, they need looking after

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from their child, so the role changes, so the child is parenting the parent.

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And that creates so many problems within those future relationships because it's too close,

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you know, that there's no separation and they become kind of melded together with the

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parent.

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And then you learn really poor boundaries moving forward in life and then you teach that

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to your own children at those poor boundaries.

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So it can go back a long way, or it could be something that just happened in your previous

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generation, as in my family, I found I was working a lot with family, with an individual trauma

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within that family, someone where it's happened to them.

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And then I started to think about the bigger picture, or what about if it's happened in your

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family and then what about if it happened a long time ago, how does that work?

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And then I thought about it for tragedy in my own family that happened in my father's

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generation before I was born.

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And I suddenly thought, "God, I wonder if that affected his behaviour."

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And as I began to unpick it, and he was a great man, I dored my father, but I was far too

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close to him because I sensed the wound in him, the hurt in him.

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But it wasn't until I kind of hit Sifty, I started thinking, "Goodness could this have affected

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his behaviour and all the story in my family, how because he was a wounded hurt man, we all

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had to do what that wanted.

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We had to go along with his needs and his needs came first because he was wounded, but it

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all happened before I was born, but I had to deal with that.

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And then I found it was affecting my close personal relationships because I didn't have good

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boundaries and I would rush to look after everybody.

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I became a therapist a bit later than some people in life, I was 40 at that point.

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But I realised I had in my personal life been rescuing people because that's where I learnt

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to do as a child, I rescued my dad.

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So I needed to rescue all my partners, had problems, I had to rescue them and my friends

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needed rescuing.

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And now I reach the point where I don't want to be rescuing all these people all the time,

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what I'm going to do is I'm going to do it professionally and no longer do it personally

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because I've learned poor boundaries, I need to relearn boundaries, I need to start to rebuild.

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And so I thought, okay, so all this is happening to me, it must be happening to other people

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too.

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And then I started to talk more as I became moved further into the world of therapy, talking

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more to people about their own experiences.

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And I think there's so many experiences or inherited trauma, you suddenly saw it straight away.

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I mean, I've had clients who are grandchildren, for example, of Holocaust survivors or, you

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know, and you see, you think, oh, how can it be effective?

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Then it can, it does, you know, Holocaust, grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are 300%

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more likely to need psychological support, that I mean, more populous.

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So there's your initial evidence.

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And it's this evidence that made people start to look at, okay, what's going on here?

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Is something being passed on?

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There's an excellent book called Generation R to Generation by a woman called Wanderer Cohen

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and she is the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor.

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And she realized her mother's behavior was affecting her and that her behavior then was affecting

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her own children as they were growing up and she needed to make it stop.

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For example, keeping safe, not drawing attention to yourself because if you're in a concentration

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camp, you don't want to be seen, you don't want to draw attention to yourself.

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So you mustn't do anything to draw attention to yourself.

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And so the mother passed this onto the daughter and the daughter was passing men that on to

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her children.

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So these, these interesting subtle things, you wouldn't think possible that get passed through

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generations.

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So it's a vast topic.

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There is so many ways in which our behaviors can be informed by our predecessor.

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I mean, they are anyway.

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But if there's a big trauma in there, then those complications are much, much bigger, I guess.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Actually, when you think about it and you look at all of this, I can see what you mean.

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I mean, when you say about a family, you know, that has a say a murderer or even if it's just

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just recently happened for instance, you know, I often think about that when I'm, you know,

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obviously on the news, you hear this reasonably often, right?

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And then the families have to deal with that sort of thing.

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And it's not something that one thinks about normally, is it?

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No, but once you do, you see the ramifications.

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And how, for example, if someone's been murdered in the family, you've got to stay safe.

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You've got how do we stay safe?

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The world is an unsafe place.

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So if you learn that, if you're a child in that family, you're going to pass that on to

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your own children.

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And we learn that safety or fear from our family environment.

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And it's fascinating how different families are.

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I think when we grow up in a family, where's you, everyone's the same?

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But they're not.

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And that leads to a lot of conflict in human relationships in one family.

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Anger has expressed a lot.

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So if someone screams and shouts, the person in that family gets always no big deal, you

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know, they're just letting off steam.

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But if that person then marries someone where there was never anger shown that one shout

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and it's all gosh, this means our relationships about to end and they then react differently.

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You know, all these learnings coming from families that may be traceable back to atroma,

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or you know, learned family patterns and how we react to them.

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So we have to unpick what's going on and understand it.

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And so often now I find within someone I'm working with that there's some story that

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goes back a bit.

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And sometimes it like to three or four sessions and suddenly someone also, well, yes, of course,

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my grandfather did commit suicide or oh, well, you know, but it's normalised because

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well, it happened in my family, didn't it? So it's just normal. But the answer, hang on,

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that's big, that's big stuff. How did that affect your parent or how did that?

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How do you think that might have informed their behaviour? Can you see any way in which that

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might be affecting how you feel right now when you're on picket, it's fascinating.

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Yeah, totally. You know, I'm really thinking about all these things that have happened in

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my life.

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And now I'm thinking about how I've brought up my children and you know, and what how they're

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reacting to everything. But you know, it's interesting. And you mentioned grandparents.

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So let's go back to that because the opening chapter centers around what they've photographed

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beside your grandmother's bed.

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Yeah.

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So what did that image become such a powerful starting point for the book?

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Well, because we weren't allowed to talk about it. And this leads me on to what makes

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it more likely for a trauma to become a problem in a family and its secrecy. Because if

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you keep secrets, you're left guessing what, what, what's this about? And it feels very

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unsafe. Secreties unsafe. There's a one called Gabrielle Schwab who wrote a book called

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haunting legacies about how a trauma in a family's like a haunting, especially if you're not

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allowed to talk about it. So it's always there. So for me, there was a picture of a woman

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holding a baby. I knew she had been my father's sister. So actually, this woman is my aunt,

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but she died before I was born. And that child is my cousin, but they died before I was born.

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And this picture just was, was like a strong presence because these people, and we weren't

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allowed to talk about their death. We didn't talk about it. It was a secret. And we just

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never allowed to look into it. And my father made me promise never to look into the story

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of the death of my aunt and her three children. I promised I broke. And I felt sometimes we

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can be induced to make a promise that isn't realistic or fair. Because it did affect

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me. And I wanted to know the story. And I wanted to know what had happened to them and why

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it was such a big secret. And I was quite frightened by this secret. What was so terrible we can't

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talk about it. And so it led to this journey. I mean, initially, for me, I really wanted

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to find out more because I started to develop some health symptoms, head tremor, and my father

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had Parkinson's. And my grandmother had had Parkinson's. And I had realized that as a, even

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as a quite younger person, I had put that down to it's to do with the trauma. So they shook

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because of the trauma that that's what I had as a child, a young person had decided. It's

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odd that the thoughts we made, but that was the link I made. The shaking is because of

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that picture, this trauma that we're not allowed to talk about. Then when I started to have

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a head tremor, I thought, my goodness, I'm I picking up and carrying this trauma on because

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they're dead now. Have I just picked this up? And am I am I carrying on this trauma? I

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need to unpack it and learn about it. So it started, I mean, the book started as I put

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it journey for myself to find out the story properly, read the inquest reports, what happened,

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and then kind of imagine in a sort of novelistic way, what was going on at the time and the

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people and and think about the impacts of it. And then to think about, okay, how did this

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affect me? And how can I heal myself now? Get blame, shame, all the things that were coming

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after that, dealing with secrecy, identity, all those factors that needed to be dealt with.

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And of course, straight away, I find more and more clients coming to me with similar or

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of traumas in their family. And they need the same sort of help and a mentor of mine said

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to me, you know, read about what I wrote. I wrote to get it out of my system, I guess. And

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she read it, she said, this is this is a book, this can help other people. And so, so it did,

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it did, got out there. And I've had a lot of feedback from people say, I read this and

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it spoke to me because I suddenly realized what was going on in my family. It may not be

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such a big trauma has happened in my own family, but there are always things going on in families

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and almost all families have secrets.

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That's what I was going to ask actually, I mean, what we took about skeletons in the family

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cupboard, right?

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Yes.

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So, these such a common term, isn't it? We use it all the time.

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And I used to think, no, surely not, surely not, but as I become older, obviously I've become

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across families who do have skeletons. And I think that that one, you know, your example

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there, that photograph that you just can't discuss, yet the photograph is there, some

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of shrine or memory, must have been reading. I mean, as a child, you probably didn't really

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think about it, but as you get older, you start to question it. And the thing is, we're learning

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things as a child that we don't know we're learning. It's unconscious learning. It's not

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conscious learning, which is the human nature, right?

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Which is the human nature, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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And so, you know, I had a learning that you've got to take care of everybody else first.

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You come second because something terrible will happen if you don't. That was the

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learning. I didn't know what a terrible thing might be, but I had to just make sure everyone's

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okay. And so I always put myself last and I, you know, I had to do a lot of work to bring

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together. I have some rights in this situation. So you have these kind of learnings. And that's

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one of the most common things I see in a family's where there's been some sort of tragedy,

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you know, for example, a mother being raped or something like that. And then the chance

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has to take care of the mother and always will feel that responsibility right through their

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life, you know, this switch between parents, you know, roles in families. And obviously when

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there's a physical problem, like parents, if it's very sick, you know, that those roles

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change. If they happen when you're quite young, that will affect your behaviors through

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your life, you know, we often end up caring for a parent in an older age, but that's kind

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of a bit different when you're doing it young is being imprinted into your pattern, you

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know, your behavior patterns. And you get, you know, as I mentioned, it boundaries become

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a problem that it blurs the eye mentality or we it's all about we and keeping us safe,

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you know, and it can be really problematic, but it moves beyond the family. And in that

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you think about whole cultures that can be affected by traumatic events. And there's been a

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lot of work coming out of Germany to do with the Second World War and the guilt Germans feel

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around the war. There's a book by a woman called Nora Krug. It's called belonging in English

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Heimat in the original German. How do I belong to these people who did this terrible thing?

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And how do we respond to that? And there is still in current generations, a feeling of guilt.

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But the people now they want to live. It was their grandparents, even great grandparents,

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who did these terrible things. But they're still in caring guilt and maybe some hesitation

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about saying one on German. And it is interesting. So a whole culture can carry guilt and shame

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for something that their ancestors did. Or of us, rehearsing it round if you are the victim,

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if you're from a culture that was colonised for generations. I mean, one of the things

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I think comes out of that often is secrecy. My mother's family is Irish. I noticed there's

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a lot of stuff around secrecy in the family. I thought this makes sense because you had to

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stay safe. You're governed by an opt-upying people. If you say the wrong thing, you could

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end up in jail or shot. So you're secretive. And you don't know who to trust. Trust is hard,

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isn't it? So if you trust your neighbour and then they tell them you did this or that, then

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you're at risk. So trust then becomes something that's hard to do. And these things can be passed

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down generations. And people don't even know why we keep secrets. Or we all know, don't

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tell the neighbours or whatever. It's just ingrained. Isn't that a pattern? We just follow

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the pattern. It's what we do. It's what we do in our family.

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It's quite right. If you think about the Shane side of things and you think about where we are

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with technology and say ancestry, that brings up all sorts of things quite often, I think,

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when people just, they may be doing some genealogy or whatever genealogy. Anyway, they could be doing

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that and they upload their DNA to somewhere or other. And then it opens up Pandora's box of

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all sorts of things going on. And again, that's happened in my in-laws family.

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Yeah. But okay, so I think we could talk a lot about all the causes and everything else,

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which is great, of course. But I think that's another subject or another time. But let's talk about

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the hypnotherapy then. So you've said that hypnotherapy helped you personally to deal with all of this

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before you trained professionally. Great. So what convinced you really, I guess, that

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you know, that the mind could generally influence well-being and that you could change, I'm guessing here,

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change your mindset or something like that. Well, how does that work?

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Well, that programming is going into our unconscious. So we don't decide it. It's there. We learned it

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going up. And for example, our stress response is an unconscious response. We learn what to be afraid of.

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And then the alarm system goes off. And I see a lot of people with a full-sea alarm system. So

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you might go one of the prime examples you grew up in a household. And in one household,

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someone sees a spider and they scream at the other household that pick it up with a piece of paper

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and cart and take it out. So one family would learn that's very scary thing. Another family that's

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nothing to be afraid of. But it's just a learning. So what we've learned, we can unlearn, we can change.

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I mean, on very, but now all simplistic level, we all used to believe in for the Christmas. But we don't,

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as an adult, we unlearn that. We've, oh, no, that's not true or the two-story or whatever it is.

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We acquire new information and we change our belief systems. So in hypnotherapy, we're working with

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the unconscious mind. And because of that, we can get through to the full-sea wiring and put in new

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new suggestions because we're all responsive to suggestion where the positive or negative. I mean,

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this is whether placebo effect and the no-cebo, the opposite effect can come in. So you've got both

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of those impacts. So we respond to suggestions. If someone says to you, oh god, didn't you see it while

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I was like, look, it rough. Suddenly, you know, but sometimes it's like, you're all great today. I said,

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yeah, I feel pretty good. You know, we're responding to that. And obviously on much, much deeper levels. So

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with hypnotherapy, we work metaphor and suggestion with the unconscious to make those subtle changes. So

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the mind has that urecha moment of, well, right, yes, of course, this isn't helping me. Is it this,

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this way of doing things isn't helping me. So we want to build a strong sense of self-self-sensualisation.

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Perhaps with one of the examples we've talked about getting too close to appearance and looking

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after them, you need to separate that. And there are methods we can use something like

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cutting the ties where you visualize you're connected with a cord and you cut that cord to that person.

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It doesn't change your relationship with them, but it reduces that emotional intensity. So you can

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function in a more self-actualised way. So building up ideas about boundaries, one of the exercises

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that's in the trauma effect is about boundaries where you visualize being on a beach and you get a

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piece of drift, would you need to draw a small circle and that's your circle and then you draw bigger

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circles getting bigger and bigger around that central circle. You put yourself in the central circle

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and then you're sewing people their places in those other circles so the people closest to you are

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in the nearest one and then you move them further around. But you're making sure you've got that

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boundary around you. Nobody has a right to be in your circle. You've got your boundary,

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but then there are people who are closer and further away that have more and more right

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to a piece of you so to speak. So you can build your protection and if you're going into a situation

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where you might feel a bit threatened, make sure yes, I've got my I'm in my circle, I'm safe.

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And these are sound quite simplistic, but with the unconscious mind,

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it really responds to these kinds of suggestions and makes change. I teach hypnotherapy as well as

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being a practitioner and a recipient and it never ceases to amaze me the changes we can make

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as someone will come into me quite broken or really distressed and eventually they're walking

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out standing tall and feeling strong again. And you're just working with those unconscious

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patterns, those unconscious learnings laid down in their family or also if you're taught to be afraid,

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for example, growing up, be careful, be careful, be careful. And then certain life events happen.

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The are a bit negative. You will go towards that negative bias to reinforce your existing belief

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systems because we have something called cognitive bias. So you don't want to be in wrong. So you'll

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look for information to reinforce your learning, which is maybe the world is a very scary place.

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I'm not safe and you'll keep reinforcing that rather than looking at 999 times, you were safe,

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you focus on the one time you want. And we're working to get that understanding in the unconscious,

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that time you fell down the stairs was once but all the other times you've been quite safe. So

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we need the unconscious to understand that and shift the emphasis, which we can do. It's

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worrying, it's learning and what we learn we can learn. We learned to and to was for by saying it

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many, many times. So we're changing the learning. Exactly. Which is again quite amazing really. I mean,

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I suppose as a hypnotherapist you've got some problems to overcome in terms when

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someone thinks about hypnotherapically and they probably are going to think about theatrical hypnotherapies.

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Stage hypnosis. Yes. Stage hypnosis. Exactly. That's the first go to think of. But they're

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having said that. Obviously this is very different process, isn't it? It is. And one of cooperation

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and trust and rapport and safety. And sometimes some of us see, you're going to make me run up

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down to the check in and say, "Rone if you want to." Because we can't do these things we don't want to do,

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you know, with stage hypnosis. You're tapping into someone's design maybe to be central attention

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or whatever. You're working with a desire in that. We can't make people do things we don't,

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they don't want to do. And if someone's coming to me, they're put it to, obviously they want to change.

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But if they want to come and resist that change, that's fine. But it's a bit of wasted of their time

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and mine. But no, it is a very different thing. And I think because people,

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there's a lot more recognition for therapy, you know, the law started medicine, have a therapy

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division, which I often attend lectures for. And it's getting so much more credibility because

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we're kind of moving away from that stature, and I see a few. And people are desperate for change. And

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when we're getting straight into the unconscious, we are fast tracking that change because we've

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got the single, the critical faculty, which we need to get around to be able to affect change.

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So I think we can do things much more quickly when we're going straight into where the problem lies.

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I can reason, on a very simplistic, I can reason with the smoker that there's cyanide in that cigarette.

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And they say, "consciously, yeah, I know that." But you're still smoking it. But if I gave you a drink

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with cyanide in it, would you drink it? Oh no. So I can rationalise with that conscious mind

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for hours, but I'm not dealing where the problem is. It's the unconscious that does that automatic

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reach for the cigarette. I don't work much with things like that anymore, but that's, you know,

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gives a very obvious sign that we will be very illogical in our conscious processing.

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Oh, sorry, unconscious processing. And not in our conscious processing. Our conscious mind knows

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what's bad for it's all that a partner that's beating us up. It's not good, but it's the unconscious

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that's keeping us there because it's the recorded pattern. You know, it's the pattern that's laid down

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and we need to get into that pattern to re-record over it to make an effect change.

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And it excites me and thrills me every day to see the changes people make. I'm not doing those for them.

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They're doing it. I'm just like the swimming coach on the side showing them what to do.

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Yes, a good analogy, actually. And they're finding their way to their recovery.

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And I've seen incredible change from people who've had really serious trauma in their lives,

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or family trauma. You know, the number of families, I guess I only see the dark side, don't I?

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Because it's the people with problems that aren't seeing. But it's huge number of families that are

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carrying trauma. Really quite shocking. And if you go back far enough, I guess there's

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might be something. And as you say with the DNA, or finding more about your family, you know, you might

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find it's not what you think it is. I mean, that was my second shot, my and it'll follow up to

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trauma effect called genes down my because I did a DNA test and found out I had a half-simply

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might didn't know about. And so here we've got another story I've got to think about. And

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that affects your identity and everything you think about your family. And the thing is one of the

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big new traumas that's coming up because so many people do a DNA test without thinking, you know,

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you need to think, do I really want to know? Because there could be something I don't want to know

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in there. But there's not much of a discussion around or only much in the way of disclaiming

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that so that people realize what they're actually might be finding out if they do that. And as you

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said, you've had it in your own your own area of acquaintance. And now, you know, again, it's another

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thing that comes through my door regularly. As people trying to deal with being the child and

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finding out they're not who they thought they were or finding out that there's someone in that

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they've got a half-simpling or, you know, then their sibling isn't their full sibling, all this sort of

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thing. It has an emotional toll on people, you know, it really does. And particularly those that

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find out that their parent isn't their parent. I mean, their whole identity shifts. And that

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our identity is our foundation stone, isn't it? It's what gives us, we build this image of

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ourselves that takes us into the world. It's what differentiates you from me, my sense of identity

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and yours. And if one piece of that's taken away, that's very destabilising. And you've got to reinvent

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yourself and think about what are the, what does it mean to be you? What are the fundamental

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things about being you? And to me, also, see, this is the thing. So let's have a look at that then.

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Let's dive a bit more into it because I'm sure if you think about it a bit more really, really sit

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there and think about what happens when that happens in the family. I mean, we've had, you've had it.

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Okay, so, and I've had it in a kind of, as I say, it was an in-laws sort of situation. So it wasn't

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directly. I avoid doing anything like that to be clear. I always have people saying, "Oh, you

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should put your DNA on there. You're kidding. No chance." Because I don't want to know.

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Right. Why would, why would I do that? Anyway, but other people too. But what about people who,

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who do want to deal with this news now, this new industry that's done this to them? As it were,

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how can you help them to really unpack everything and relearn their own sense of identity then?

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Yeah. I mean, it is looking, I mean, firstly, we need to pay back what does identity mean because you're

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more than your parents, your name. I mean, come with identities. The first thing is our names. It's

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a very first stage of identity. Our first name and then potentially our surname coming from a parent.

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And that, if that gets affected, then that's our absolute foundation style, isn't it? But it's

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building up a sense that our identity is so much more than our ancestry and where we come from.

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And building up what are your core strengths, seeing yourself as an individual that goes far beyond

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that family DNA story. I mean, that's the background. But you're so much more than that. We become more

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than our blueprint. And we know that even from a genetic perspective, because genes, we can change

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our genetic make-up through, through epigenetics. So, so it doesn't need to be as fundamental as we

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make it. But also, so it's looking at that and it's looking at the relationships within the family.

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I have a metaphor I use about tree roots. So our roots go into our family and they're kind of

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that quite foundational. But I try to bring in this idea, look how exciting it is because now you've

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got new roots. Nobody can take away your upbringing, where you were born and who brought you up. Even if

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that pair of one of them isn't your true biological parent, they still brought you up. They're still

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part of your root system. But actually it's quite exciting because now you've got these new roots

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into a new family. So let's explore the positives that are coming out of this. I mean, I

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I only came as a child for a large class of my life and then found out I had a half sibling.

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I was when I found out that I behaved like a five year old who had just found out that their second

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child was coming or all and they were being displaced. And the old isn't adults. And I had had

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my father or you know, or my life. So I had nothing to feel track them up. But I felt I was emotionally

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kind of feeling all those acting out feelings. And why I've got to deal with this. This is good.

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You know, I should know better. And then I started really, so what are the positives now? I have a

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half sister. How exciting. I never had one. Never had a sister. So let's look at the strengths of that.

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And I have two nephews, half nephews. I didn't have any nephews. How exciting is that?

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And so you do need to try and draw out the positives that are coming from the new family, if obviously

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if that family is welcoming. And a lot of the time it is, which is good. And so we need to build on

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the strengths that come out of this new information. And that no one can take away that foundational

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part of yourself that the way where you were brought up and who you felt you were is just biology.

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So let's just look beyond that. So obviously the identity is a big thing. And processing

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feelings around shame. Unfortunately, even now, even now people feel shame if they find out

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their legitimate, for example, they weren't born in wedlock. You know, how ridiculous is this in

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the modern world? But it is and people have those feelings. So you need to try and process and let

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go of those feelings of shame. And there are obviously many different ways we can try and approach

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this. But we want to let go of the shame. Shame has a purpose. It's actually hardwired into us.

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Shame is there to stop us doing anything to be expelled from the tribe. It's primal.

401
00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:55,420
So if you do anything shameful, you could end up out there on your own fighting to survive.

402
00:36:55,420 --> 00:37:02,540
So shame has a purpose, but we need to repurpose it for the modern world because we feel shame about

403
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:08,460
things we shouldn't feel shame for. We use the word shame a lot, don't we fact shame in all this sort

404
00:37:08,460 --> 00:37:17,580
of thing. So we need to let go of shame and rebuild the sense of self, which is the foundation, I think.

405
00:37:17,580 --> 00:37:23,980
For moving forward. Incredible, really. I mean, unfortunately, we are starting to run out of time.

406
00:37:23,980 --> 00:37:31,820
We could talk for hours, but I think I find it absolutely fascinating. But at the end of the day,

407
00:37:31,820 --> 00:37:39,900
I think that readers and listeners to our podcast and viewers as well. What can they take away

408
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:45,020
after finishing the trauma effect? What do you hope that they learn from that?

409
00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:50,060
I hope that they learn that they can make changes to the story they were given.

410
00:37:51,260 --> 00:37:57,420
And I do, as I take them through at therapeutic journey, there are exercises in there that can help them

411
00:37:57,420 --> 00:38:04,860
to start to alter that pattern. You know, there's a lot of work you can do for yourself.

412
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:12,220
I think encouraging even talking within the family, if it's been a shameful secret, bring it out,

413
00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:21,580
dust it down, talk about it. I mean, it's really important and it does make change just

414
00:38:21,580 --> 00:38:28,300
bringing it out of the closet, as you said, the skeleton, bringing it out, talking about it,

415
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:35,980
and not hiding from it. Even that in and of itself can affect change for everybody, because actually

416
00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:43,100
it's a relief. Carrying secrets is exhausting. And it prevents being close to people, because you're

417
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,380
always frightened or you might accidentally let it out. I'm keep, I'll keep this in, I've got to keep

418
00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:53,740
this in. So it brings you closer to people when you can actually talk about what's going on. So,

419
00:38:53,740 --> 00:39:01,100
so I mean, yeah, just reading someone else's story can make you refer to your own story,

420
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:07,420
but then talking about it within your family, I really encourage that. I know some people don't want

421
00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:12,700
to, but it really makes a difference. And then there are all sorts of therapeutic things you can do,

422
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:16,380
or you know, go and see it, see a therapist if you feel it would help you, but there are things you

423
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:23,980
can do for yourself that will help you move forward and make change, you know, change your own

424
00:39:24,540 --> 00:39:32,220
story. It's yours. You know, we've done so much understanding now about memory and how memory

425
00:39:32,220 --> 00:39:36,940
changes every time you go over it and you kind of swipe your all-trip and it's like a photo,

426
00:39:36,940 --> 00:39:42,860
a photo, a copy of a photo, a copy of a photo, a copy of a photo. So let's start with something new,

427
00:39:42,860 --> 00:39:52,460
let's re-re-re-change our story. And one of the things I did in the trauma effect was I created a

428
00:39:52,460 --> 00:39:59,740
narrative where I actually met my aunt who I didn't meet in my life. And I write out this story of seeing

429
00:39:59,740 --> 00:40:06,940
her and meeting her and then I had that delivered to me in trance. And I feel like I have a connection

430
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:15,660
turn I didn't have before. It's like I've created a new positive memory or with my sister. I wrote

431
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:22,860
some little cameo stories about if we'd met before and I wove them together and put it into a thing

432
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:28,060
for her and she was such a hype. Oh my goodness, I felt like we've had those experiences together

433
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:35,740
which we never did. So there's an amazing what you can do if you have the will to do it. And I think

434
00:40:35,740 --> 00:40:42,140
it's having the will to change and not want to keep being stuck in the same patterns. The first

435
00:40:42,140 --> 00:40:49,500
thing is to notice isn't it? To notice I'm being affected by by more families,

436
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:54,380
buttons whether they're this generation or a previous generation or whatever. I'm being affected

437
00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:59,420
by that and I don't want to be anymore. I want to live my best life. I want to have the best

438
00:40:59,420 --> 00:41:05,580
quality ones, one relationships in my life. And therefore I mean we could all do with a bit of change

439
00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:13,260
and I don't think any of us can travel through life on mark by experience. Whether that's

440
00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:18,300
relationship, personal relationship, family relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you need to deal with that.

441
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:23,900
Yeah, exactly. Well, Zetta, we've run out of time. Yeah, it's been great fun talking to you, Chris.

442
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:29,100
Thank you for your interest. No, no, thank you. It's been fantastic. You know, definitely. Thank

443
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:34,620
you very much. Zetta Thomelin for joining me today to discuss the trauma effect and resolving

444
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:40,540
really inherited trauma, I think it's kind of, you know, something that some people may embrace

445
00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:47,500
easier than others. Yeah, and some people don't want to know, you know, but we can't get better and

446
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:53,740
as we acknowledge there's something there. Exactly. Yeah. So as you know, as we've been saying,

447
00:41:53,740 --> 00:41:58,140
basically, the book explores the hidden ways that trauma, secrecy and the emotional patterns

448
00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:03,180
can ripple through families, even across generations. And you know, it asks important questions,

449
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:10,460
doesn't it about identity, healing and understanding ourselves far more deeply? So I, you would have

450
00:42:10,460 --> 00:42:14,700
let everybody know where you can get the book or how to come to you. Well, I mean, as you can

451
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:22,220
order it to a book shop or through Amazon, the usual places. And I have a website at zeta.com,

452
00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:25,580
if anyone's interested to find out a bit more about me and my work.

453
00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:30,300
Fantastic. Well, brilliant. Was that a thank you very much. It's been a pleasure and listeners

454
00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:34,620
of viewers. If you've enjoyed this conversation, don't forget that you can find more author

455
00:42:34,620 --> 00:42:39,580
conversation interviews wherever you get your podcasts and obviously on YouTube as well.

456
00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:45,900
So thanks for watching. Zetta, Thomelin. Thank you very much for joining me. And well, I'll see you

457
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:51,900
guys next time, but Zetta, it has been a pleasure. We've learned a lot, I think. And well, I just hope

458
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:58,060
that you can help a lot more people to deal with their issues with this. Thanks Chris. Thank you. Take care.

459
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If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more author conversations here.

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