March 9, 2026

Peter Dingus Interview | The End of the World Explained | Author Conversations with Chris Dabbs

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Season 1

In this episode of Author Conversations with Chris Dabbs, Author Peter Dingus, PhD, joins broadcaster Chris Dabbs to discuss his science fiction novella The End of the World and the deeper ideas behind his work.

They explore the ideas behind the story, the inspiration for the book and how Peter approaches big, existential themes through fiction.

This is a conversation about storytelling at scale — and what it means to imagine the end of everything.

Before becoming a novelist, Peter Dingus worked in physics and engineering with organisations including École Polytechnique in Paris, CERN in Geneva and Lockheed. That scientific background shapes the way he approaches storytelling — blending real science, deep time and philosophical questions about humanity’s future.

In this conversation we explore:
• The ideas behind The End of the World
• How physics influences science fiction writing
• Why civilisation itself may be humanity’s greatest challenge
• The relationship between science and imagination
• What science fiction can teach us about our future

This long-form interview explores the thinking behind Peter Dingus’ writing and the questions that drive his work.

Watch the full video interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/we0FhgZKe1M

00:00 Introduction
01:10 Peter Dingus background
05:40 From physics to fiction
12:15 Writing The End of the World
20:30 Science and storytelling
32:00 Civilisation and survival
44:20 Humanity’s future
54:30 Advice for writers
59:00 Closing thoughts

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Author Conversations with Chris Dabbs is a podcast exploring the ideas behind books.

Each episode features a long-form conversation with an author about their work, research and the questions that shaped their writing.

Watch the full video interviews on YouTube and follow the podcast for future conversations.

Hosted by Chris Dabbs – broadcast journalist and podcast consultant.

www.chrisdabbs.online

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The question i'd ask an alien is, you know, in

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order to come from one start to the next, the

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amount of power that you have to be in charge

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of is unimaginable. And you know, we have like these

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little things like atomic bombs, and we're always like one

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step away from self annihilation. So I'd ask them, presumably

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you came from where we came from, how did you

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get to the other side of it?

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Hello, and welcome to Author Conversations. I'm Chris Tabs, broadcast

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journalist with the BBC and Times Radio. That's the Times

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of London, by the way, just so you know, And

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today I'm joined by the award winning science fiction writer

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Peter Dingis. He's the author of Deep Time, add the

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new novella at the End of the World. Wow, that's

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going to be something interesting to get into. But Peter's background,

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first of all, is absolutely fascinating. Before becoming a novelist,

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he had a long career in physics and engineering. He

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works with organizations including a Cold Polytechnique in Paris, CERN

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in Geneva, Lockheed and the super Conducting super Collider Projects

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in Dallas, Texas. So he's really been busy and all

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the time he's found time to earn a PhD in

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physics as well. Peter, you have been busy, But Peter,

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you're now an award winning science fiction author, and you're

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kind of known for blending rigorous scientific thinking with character driven,

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speculative storytelling. Across your scientific career, He's authored more than

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sixty five peer reviewed scientific papers, and he first came

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to writing with his novel Proteus Rising. The book began, really,

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I think, as a therapeutic writing exercise after a sporting

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accident which left him with a spinal cord injury. But

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we'll get into that later on. He later published the

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anthology Worlds in Transition and the novel Deep Time Now.

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Deep Time won the Story Trade Award for Best Science

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Fiction Novel of twenty twenty four and first place in

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the International Sigmas Award for Best Science Fiction of twenty

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twenty four while done there. His latest work, The End

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of the World, is a philosophical science fiction novella set

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on Mars. It explores humanity survival after catastrophe and asks

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what might happen if humanity's last survivors were forced to

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rebuild civilization on Mars, and what they might discover buried

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beneath the planet's surface. Peter, this sounds great, I got

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to say, and I know we're really going to look

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forward to talking to you. So welcome. It's great to

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have you here with us. Thank you excellent. Well my

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first question, then, you know, really is I think just

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to try and understand where you come from more than

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anything else. So what led you to write science fiction

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after a career in science fact, I guess well, you know, you.

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Know what's interesting and one of the reasons why I've

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written science fiction is I got into science because I

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read science fiction. So when I was a kid, I

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read a lot of science fiction, you know, like all

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of the old authors, Arthur C. Clark, Robert Heinlein, versul

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La Gwynn, Stanislaw Lamb, all of those authors. And you

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know you happen to mention the end of the world. Well,

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that came from that came from your side of the pond.

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I read a book a long long time ago by

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Nigel Shoot called On the Beach, and On the Beach

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was I mean, it made a huge impression on me.

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And the derivative of that, many many years later is

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the end of the World. So it's sort of the

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other way around. I read these books, you know, back

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in those days, you know, Spot Naked, Gone Up. We've

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been in the so called space age. You're a kid,

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You're watching Guy's Land on the Moon, and you wanted

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to be part of.

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It, you know.

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So that's what got me into science and then subsequently,

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many many years later, having been a scientist. You know,

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I basically thought, well, you know, writing science fiction would

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be a great way to connect with people emotionally about

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the things I care about. So that's a you know, storytelling.

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I mean, it's very emotional, an emotion makes a huge

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impact on people. And then that was the that was

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the you know, sort of the impetus.

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If you're enjoying this conversation, you can find the full

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interview and more author discussions by searching author Conversations with

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Chris Stabs on your podcast platform. Wow, that's it's amazing.

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And yeah, you know, never shoot, I read that as

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a as a young teenager as well. On the beach.

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That really was quite harrowing, I think, to reading that book,

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So that's interesting, isn't it. I Mean, funnily enough, I

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watched the film again recently, and I think there's equally

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as harrowing still, isn't it. You know?

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Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean that that came

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out at a time when you know, when I was

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a kid in middle school. You know, you get under

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the desk, there's an alarm, you get under the desk,

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remember that, And so it was very real, you know,

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it wasn't just like sort of an exercise in in

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the fantasy. I mean, it was very real. So and

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it made a huge impression. So that the novella The

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End of the World, what it does is it explores,

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you know, how do people feel when it actually happens,

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and you do it on Mars, so that they're they're

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isolated from that. But you know, in in the in

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the in the beginning of the end, they're hearing from

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the people who are basically ceasing to exist, and now

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they're thinking, well, you know, now, what what do we

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do now? And of course there's there's all kinds of lament.

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People regret, like, you know, things that happened in their lives,

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the fact that they haven't thought about things that were

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important and now they're isolated and all these people that

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cared about and they'll never see them again, et cetera.

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Et cetera. So you know, when you write fiction like this,

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you want it to be you know, it has to

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be exciting. I mean, people read, you know, they read

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stories because they love stories, they love the characters. They

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want it to be exciting. But the other thing is

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you might want to have it work on several levels,

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you know, and if it does work on several levels,

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then it resonates with the reader, and the reader, you know,

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the reader gets into the story. So that was the idea.

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And unlike On the Beach, I don't know if you've

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read this one or listen to it as an audiobook,

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but it goes, it goes someplace really unexpected.

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Well there's not havny spoilers going, but no, I mean, yeah,

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I think that's the thing. You know. On the Beach is, Yeah,

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it's quite I guess, seminal in terms of those sorts

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of books. But you don't see much of this happening

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in Hollywood, do you, you know, in terms of the movies.

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Really looking at things like this.

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Things have really changed, you know, things have really really changed.

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And you know the thing is for people like me

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who write the kind of fiction I do, I mean,

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it's not it's not really a young person's fiction. It's not,

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you know, but I hope that young people read it,

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and I hope that young people listen to it because,

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you know, I think that that sense of wonder it's

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sort of been lost in the fact that you know,

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now it's like how much cgi you know, how many

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you know, how many fistfights? You know, it goes on

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and on and on, and you know, what you'd like

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to have is something a little bit more contemplated. Even

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though even though you want it you want it to

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be exciting and you want it to be a page turner,

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you still want it to be you know, you want

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it to be grounded in people's experience. So yeah, and

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that's exactly I want to just I just want to

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make one more plug for the End of the world.

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If you happen to have a Spotify account, you can

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listen to it for free.

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There you go, So everyone onto Spotify, search for the

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End of the world, and there you are done.

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You have to do a say Peter Dingis it will

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come up excellent.

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Okay, good, so we don't worry. We'll have that link

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in there as well for people who who don't know

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how to do that. So we'll put that into the

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show notes and things fantastic. I was just going to say, actually,

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that's one of the things that Shoot did quite well,

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wasn't It was to make the film sort of and

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the book kind of, I guess, really human, and in

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some respects we'd say it kind of plods along, you know,

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because you've got all the human interaction going on as

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if nothing's really happening, and it all kind of creeps

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up on them, doesn't it. But that's enough of that,

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because let's talk about your books, right. So at the

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End of the World. You know, you often described as

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a hard science fiction writer. Okay, now this was obviously

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got something to do with your training and your experience, right,

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But how much of the physics in the End of

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the World is grounded in real science?

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Well, well, you know, the thing is, I've been I've

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been interested in a couple of things that I think

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are are big today. I've been interested in genetic engineering.

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I've been interested in AI, and been interested in alien contact,

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you know, and I have like a very different take

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on some of these. For example, of Proteus Rising. You know,

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Proteus Rising one of the central characters, as a quantum computer.

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It was, it was written and by the way, I've

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written a lot of AI. You know, as a scientist,

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one of the things that you know, so what do

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you do as a particle physicist? Right, you either build

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detectors or you analyze data. And the data the data

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is so complicated that years ago, I mean thirty years ago,

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we were analyzing data using neural mats. So I've coded

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a lot of neural mats and I you know, I mean,

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the only thing that's really changed now got oh, you

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know AI has just been invented. No, actually it was

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invented thirty or forty years ago. I mean, it's the

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sort of the same algorithms. The thing is that the

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hardware has gotten so much better. That's the thing that's made.

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And then since the hardware is so good, you know,

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you put it out into the public, the public interacts

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with it, and you know, it becomes a phenomenon. But

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in Proteus Rising, you know, back in two thousand and six,

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I was talking about quantum computers and you know who

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had heard about quantum computers back in the day. So

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basically Proteus Rising was it was a story about quantum

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computers and genetic engineering, and it also has its roots

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in a novel, and the novel that sort of inspired it, strangely,

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strangely enough, was all quite on the Western Front. Weird,

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isn't it? Because I mean, how do is proteus rising

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on Mars? How's that all's quite on the Western Front? Well,

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what it is is four hundred years in the future,

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when you know you have a civilization on Mars that's

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different from the civilization on Earth. You can think about

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it at like England and America. Right, So you have

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a lot of a lot of unhappy people on Mars

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because they're being exploited. Right, So there's a lot of

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riots in the streets. There's all this kind of stuff.

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And the story centers around this expat as scientist who's

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he's discovered a new type of quantum computer. It's it's

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you know, it's it's actually sentient and awake. He comes

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to Mars. He's really unhappy with his life on Earth.

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It's like, think about you're in England, you're in debtors prison.

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All of a sudden, you get out of Debtor's prison,

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you get on a ship and you come to America

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and you know, maybe you can maybe you can thrive,

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you know. So that's that's his experience. But a lot

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of the stuff that happens on Mars is based on science.

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I mean, Mars is a very it's a poisonous planet, right,

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I mean it's got tons of radiation, it's got perchlorides

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and soil, it got blah blah blah, it's got no

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atmosphere to speak of. So when when people immigrate to Mars,

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they have to go through genetic therapy, right, you have to.

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You have to go through to make you more radiating,

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radiation resistant, bigger lungs. So so there's a there's a

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big department of reproductive affairs, and and what what happens

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is it gives this guy and a geneticist of a

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colleague that he meets on Mars the opportunity to have

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this quantum computer spin up like a really really really

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different uh genetic code for human beings. And he goes

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to the clinic and he he he changes the genetics

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of a bunch of kids in the embryo stage and

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haven't been born yet. And you know, when they're born there,

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you know, they seem like normal people. And the story

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takes place fifteen years later when these these traits, these

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these new traits start to materialize and it's you know,

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in that world, there are several several different types of people.

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There are people like you and me. They're called normals,

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and then there are people who are called moderns, and

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they're like the sort of genetic enhancements you'd expect, you know,

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they're they're more handsome, they're more physically fit, they're smarter,

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you know, all this stuff, but it's all superficial. What

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the quantum Computer has done is he's really it's really

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changed the human soul. So these people are really different.

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And the story starts fifteen years later. As they reach puberty,

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they start to become different, and the government on Earth

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finds out about what's going on, and there they fear it,

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you know, I mean, these people are different. You know

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what's going to happen. So the whole story is about

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the the the authorities trying to capture these people, gain

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control of them, bring them back on Earth studying, and

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of course both the quantum Computer and these people don't

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want that to happen. So that's what the story is about.

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It's pretty fast paced and it goes to some really

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really interesting places.

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Wow. Honestly, it's so is so exciting, it really is.

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I mean it basically, let me let me, let me,

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let me show you the cover.

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Yeah, oh exactly. No, we're going to have the cover

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on the screen as well. So no, that's great. If

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you're enjoying this conversation, you can find the full interview

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and more author discussions by searching Author Conversations with Chris

256
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Stabs on your podcast platform. But what amazes me is

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where you've managed to, I guess, weave a whole bunch

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of science into this. I say a bunch, you know

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what I mean, different with different sciences. I mean, quantum

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computing is fascinating. When you start thinking about quantum entanglements

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and all of this sort of thing, it's just, you know,

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mind blowing. Obviously not so much maybe to you, but

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to a lay person.

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I think I think it's my I think. Look, it's

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like Fineman said, if you think you understand quantum mechanics,

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you don't understand except nobody.

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It's so strange, isn't it. I mean I think people

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still say it's strange, right, yeah, And for me, I

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have no idea, just a very surface, you know, the

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understanding of the even the discussion want anything else, but

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it always fascinates me anyway. So I mean if you

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think about that, then you think about the AI. As

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you say, if you have a quantum AI working away,

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I mean, you know, obviously, wow, how amazing would that be?

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And then you've got genetics as well, bringing in that angle,

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because you know, everyone wants to be better. They all

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want their progeny to be better. But what happens when

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they do become better?

279
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So the thing about the thing about this story is

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the people who do this, it's not so much it's

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not so much like I say, referred back to all

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it's quite on the western front. It's not so much

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that they want people to be better in the canonical way,

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like they're prettier, they're smarter. That's not what they want.

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What they want is they want people to be different.

286
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You know. So you look at and why a quantum computer.

287
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I mean why so the quantum computer. The thing that

288
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it can do is it's so vast because of the

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whole quantum thing. It's so vast that it can form

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in its mind like whole worlds of people, right, So

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it can form whole worlds of people, and it can

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change their genetics in a simulation. And basically what it

293
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can do is it can recount human history, which these

294
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guys want that history to be different, right, and it

295
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basically iterates like through millions of generations until it gets

296
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the genetics right, and then it brings these people into reality.

297
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So that's that's why the quantum computer, right.

298
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Good.

299
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Yeah, So the quantum computer, interestingly enough, has a big

300
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stake in this, right. It's actually alive and it it's

301
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created this world. And both both the people who did

302
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this in the computer are really invested in this vision.

303
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And this is a vision that the people in charge hate.

304
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They don't want it, you know, because they're in charge, right, yeah,

305
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so they do, you know. It's you know, so there

306
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you go.

307
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Wow, Okay, I mean obviously you can see I'm really

308
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excited about this, and I'm sure our listeners are going

309
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to be equally as excited right listening to you. And

310
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it's no wonder you wont an award last year or

311
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the previous year. Rather, but what you know, let's let's

312
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go down to brass taxi. Let's think about some emotional questions. Right, So,

313
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out of all those sciences, you've got your your quantum computing,

314
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you've got your AI. I guess you've got the genetics

315
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all that. Which science did you most enjoy exploring in

316
00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.039
this particular story or is it just an amalgama hall

317
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of them? Yeah?

318
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It was, you know, I mean, we have this idea

319
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about AI, and the thing is that the AI that

320
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we like what is in my opinion, you know, back

321
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in the day when this stuff was invented. It was

322
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invented back in the sixties by people like Marvin Minsky

323
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at MIT, right, these are the kind of people who

324
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you know, they first they first came up with what

325
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we call neural nets. They used to call them perceptrons.

326
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Minsky wrote a book in the sixties called Perceptrons and

327
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Computation and Finite and Infinite Machines. When I was an

328
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electrical engineer, I actually had to read these books, I think,

329
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you know, they were textbooks in school. And so you know,

330
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you you you have AI, which is a big pattern

331
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recognition system, et cetera. But you know a lot of

332
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people have this idea like is it alive? Right, and

333
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so in Proteus Rising, I have this thing, this this

334
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this thing when they're talking about whether this machine is

335
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alive or not is how do you infuse the quality

336
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of desire in algorithmic code? How do you do that?

337
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You know?

338
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So the thing, the fundamental idea of being alive is

339
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a knowledge of one's own existence, and the systems we

340
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have now they don't do that, you know. So so

341
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.359
that was another that was another draw in this book

342
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was to sort of explore that if you actually created

343
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like a real being in a box. So you've got

344
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a being in a box and it has desires, it

345
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has a view of the world, it has it has

346
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its own take on what's going on, and then you

347
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you have it in for instance, there's a part in

348
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Proteus Rising where you know, this machine is like really

349
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really powerful and the guy who created it never even

350
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thought of the fact that, you know, he just let

351
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it get out into the world. So if it was malevolent,

352
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you know, that's it. You can't stop it now, right,

353
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:08.880
I mean, we've had those kinds of stories. Is another

354
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:13.000
one was a Colossus, which was another British writer back

355
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:18.640
in the early sixties, and so you know, it's there's

356
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.599
there's also this naivete on the part of the people

357
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who've done this. I think, you know, they have this

358
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.480
vision of what they want, and they forget, Yeah, well,

359
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.960
this thing's alive and it might want something too, you know.

360
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.119
So yeah, especially if they designed it to be alive,

361
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.839
you know. I mean, I think that that's the thing.

362
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:42.000
And we've also, excuse me, we've also seen that, Yeah,

363
00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.720
I guess the sentient AI in you know a few

364
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.759
other sort of like fictional things in Hollywood and things

365
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.440
like that. I keep relating to Hollywood just in case

366
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:57.119
that people have noticed those things. And I think that

367
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.359
it's always been quite interesting, isn't it, because you know,

368
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.880
we've always had to think about, Okay, well it's AI,

369
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.960
this sentience, so you know, basically they just take it

370
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:07.039
as read that they have to kind of figure out

371
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.079
that they've got to treat that AI as a person

372
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.400
of whatever kind of breed they want to look at

373
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.359
it as you know. I mean, I think famously the

374
00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:19.680
data in Star Trek, Okay in the Next Generation, or

375
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.240
there are many others that you can think of, and

376
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.000
so yeah, I think it's fascinating, and I think that

377
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.519
people are really going to be drawn to this who

378
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.640
have especially now with AI. We you know, it touches

379
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.680
us every day, right, I think, and at the same time,

380
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.839
maybe we don't understand it, or obviously we probably don't

381
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:42.119
understand it, but we don't understand how much it's changing things.

382
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.000
And like you say, it comes across as being alive,

383
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.160
but it's not, is it.

384
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:51.880
Right, It's not. But I got to say that a

385
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:56.119
couple of these companies, especially Anthropic, has done a really

386
00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:01.000
good job. They have a heuristic piece. It's not just uh,

387
00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:05.440
it's not just l ll M. They have a heuristic piece.

388
00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:06.759
It's actually very interesting.

389
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:09.440
We could talk about this rageous, Peter and I think,

390
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.160
but yeah, I mean, it's incredible, incredible. Okay, So back

391
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.920
to Protius Rising. Now, one of the questions that I

392
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.480
have to ask you is why Mars right as the

393
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:21.440
setting for human.

394
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.680
That's that's a very good question. It's this, it's the same.

395
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.960
It's the same reason that you know, if we go

396
00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.200
back to like the guy in Better's prison back in

397
00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:33.839
the you know, in the in the fifteenth century in England,

398
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:38.559
and now they come to this new world. Uh. The

399
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.559
thing about the thing about the old world is you

400
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:45.759
can't change it. There's just too much history, there's too

401
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:49.880
much inertia behind the old world. And then you come

402
00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:54.720
to the new World, right, and you've got to worry

403
00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.839
about the winter, and you've got to worry about food,

404
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:00.400
and you've got to worry about supply. Is he got

405
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.119
to worry about a lot of stuff. So if you're

406
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.920
somebody with a little game, you know, there's a lot

407
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:12.799
more opportunity for doing something different. So the whole idea

408
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:16.680
in Proteus Rising was this guy who immigrates to Mars.

409
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.599
He's an expat. He wasn't happy with his life on Earth.

410
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.920
But because Mars, even at this stage four hundred years

411
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.759
in the future, is still sort of a frontier environment,

412
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.319
there's so much opportunity for change. So he could have

413
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.680
never done this thing that he did on Mars back

414
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:38.160
on Earth. But on Mars there was this opportunity because

415
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.559
genetic engineering was just part of the culture. It wasn't

416
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.000
something that was fantastic or you know, was available to

417
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.920
people who were very wealthy or influential. You know, common

418
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.839
people had to have it just for survival. So it's

419
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.759
an opportunity for him to do it on the qt.

420
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.720
Nobody knows about it, nobody can object to it, and

421
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.960
you know, before anybody understands what's happened, it's happened.

422
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.000
Yeah, So I mean this is the thing, right, So

423
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.640
that's that's why Mars. Yeah, well no, exactly right, But

424
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.279
I think that you know, the next part if you

425
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:15.079
think about it, is that you're looking at leadership and

426
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.200
survival in those sorts of circumstances that you're talking about there.

427
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.000
And the thing that gets me there is that you

428
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.640
so what you're what you're saying is that the emmagrays

429
00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:28.000
are basically genetically engineering themselves to be able to survive

430
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:30.640
in that environment. So they're doing the equivalent of what

431
00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.759
people used to do with burn their ships, right, And

432
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.640
so they can't go home. They're stuck there. They can't

433
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:39.440
go back to Earth, can they without problems and everything else.

434
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.680
So is that kind of where you're going with that

435
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:46.759
and exploring leadership and survival in those sorts of circumstances.

436
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.440
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And also there's a you know,

437
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:54.480
on Mars, just like everything else. I mean, you know,

438
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:58.640
Roger Williams comes to Massachusetts and get kicked out because

439
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.359
you know, the RELI it's not right for them in Massachusetts, right,

440
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.359
so hees the found Road. Well, it's the same thing

441
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:09.680
on Mars. You know, there's just a lot of animosity

442
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.920
towards people from Earth, you know, and so there's just

443
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:20.359
there's just it's this just this cauldron of like unhappy people,

444
00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:25.359
new things happening, you know, technology really taking this huge

445
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.279
leap forward. And then you have this thing that's alive,

446
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.960
that has it looks out into the world and sees

447
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.880
what's happening, and you know, it may have a different

448
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.799
understanding of what's up. And then you have these proteus people.

449
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.480
So you get to you get to know these proteus

450
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.720
people and they are really different, you know, and so

451
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.759
there's a there's a there's just all of these different

452
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:53.720
groups who are in conflict and contention and agreement, you know,

453
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.119
and it's it's it's pretty mixed up.

454
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:01.519
Yeah, it sounds it. I love the we mentioned there

455
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:05.599
about Rhode Island for instance, right, yeah, totally, yeah. I

456
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.519
think that's the thing. And if all of these people

457
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.960
fleeing Earth and were fleeing you know, in inverted commers

458
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.960
kind of thing. But bringing all of that together in

459
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.440
science fiction is really interesting because you know, science fiction

460
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.319
is well pretty much ubiquitous, isn't it.

461
00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:19.599
Right.

462
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.559
It comes in many's up sub genres, you know, yours

463
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:27.359
being termed as hard science fiction means that there's lots

464
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:28.920
of fact in it and all that sort of thing,

465
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.079
doesn't it, But you know what's unique about your particular

466
00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:32.839
brand then.

467
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.200
Well, you know, I really, I really, you know, and

468
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:39.319
this is really a mountain that you have to climb.

469
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:43.799
I want people who don't typically read science fiction to

470
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.440
give this a try. Yeah, you know, and that's why

471
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:50.480
I that's why I produced the audiobook because it doesn't

472
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:54.319
ask too much of the reader or listener, but it

473
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:56.759
gets you. It gets you sort of like you know,

474
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:02.119
it exposes to the reader what I'm trying to do.

475
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.200
And if you like it, you know, try the other

476
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:08.319
books as well. So you know, I want, you know,

477
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:17.039
people who would typically read things like you know, judicial fiction,

478
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:20.480
techno thrillers. You know, if you if you like things

479
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.960
like you know, Michael Crichton or you know some techno

480
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:30.640
thrillers today, h there there, you know, there's a bunch

481
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:35.480
of them. And if you like, if you like judicial mysteries,

482
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.079
things like that, you might like this, you know, because

483
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.519
like I say, it's what I try to do is

484
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.680
I try to make it like character driven, and I

485
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.640
try to make it about stuff that people care about today.

486
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:54.359
So and I try to I try to write it

487
00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:58.640
in a style that is not hard to read. But

488
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:02.400
you know, it's it's it's not you know, it's not

489
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.039
it respects the reader. Let's put it that way.

490
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.920
No, you got it. I think techno fiction is quite

491
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.160
a good way to look at that from our point

492
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.680
of view, whether it's judicial or whatever. So in other words,

493
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.440
you're having to think when you read it, right, So

494
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.319
you you you possibly for me my own personally, it's

495
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.480
about learning something at the same time, because you know,

496
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:24.200
I just don't want superficial fiction, right, and so with

497
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:24.759
you you.

498
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.400
Know, let me look, it's interesting that you say that,

499
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:31.240
because when when proteoce Rising first, you know, when I

500
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:37.079
first wrote it. Actually, at that point, you know, I well,

501
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.960
I got in touch with the with an agent. And

502
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:44.519
this guy was actually a famous agent. He had been

503
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.839
an agent for somebody who was really famous. And we

504
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.440
talked about the book for about two weeks, you know,

505
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:55.759
off and on on the telephone, and finally he well,

506
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.480
he he taught me a couple of things that were

507
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.400
really interesting. He said, Look, if you had giving me

508
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.240
in his book in nineteen seventy four, I could have

509
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.240
sold a millionairem okay, but right now it's not going

510
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:09.440
to work. And I and I asked him why not?

511
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:11.519
And you know what he said, You're going to love this,

512
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.799
he said, because people who read science fiction don't want

513
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.480
to learn anything. And at that moment I knew this

514
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:22.960
wasn't the right guy for me, right No, So, so

515
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:27.960
his take on like, you know, the readers was you know,

516
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.279
it just wasn't my take on the readers. And it's

517
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.079
like saying something like this, if you will, if you

518
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.839
like a detective mystery and all of a sudden you

519
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.680
get like real CSI, then you put the book down

520
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:44.920
because you don't want to learn anything. No, people love CSI,

521
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.920
I mean they love that stuff, right yeah, So I

522
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.319
just I, you know, I really don't get like where

523
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.359
some of these people are coming from, because you know,

524
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.240
they underestimate people. I mean, people do want to learn something,

525
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.319
you know, they're interested in things. That's why they that's

526
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.880
why they read like you know. So, so if you

527
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:06.039
were to read like something like judicial fiction and we

528
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.599
just make up jurisprudence, we just make it up, you know,

529
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.839
not as interesting. I mean you actually want to understand

530
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.839
how the legal process works. So this is what I

531
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:19.039
did with the science fiction was you know, I tried

532
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:20.759
to make a character driven and I try to make

533
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.319
it exciting, but you know, I try to respect the

534
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.480
reader and actually put some stuff out there that I

535
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.880
think is interesting to people because it's interesting to me.

536
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:35.319
So yeah, yeah, no, exactly exactly. I mean it's a

537
00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:37.599
perfect way to think that, I think. Right, So you

538
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:39.519
and me we're on the same page that, which is good.

539
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.160
But you know, we have to hope that the world

540
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.319
isn't going down on the other side of things where

541
00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:51.000
right can you imagine some people would say, we're already

542
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:53.400
in that place, but you know, let's give the world

543
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.599
a chance, shall we? So probably because I'm old, dumb

544
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.400
saying now, I don't know. But so let's go back.

545
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:04.680
So rising you, you know, obviously your career and your

546
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:08.119
your whole writing career as well as your as your

547
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.839
other you know, educational and career, that job career. What

548
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.839
did you learn though from all of those authors that

549
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.880
you mentioned earlier on Obviously we've understood you know, never

550
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.440
shoot and that, but what about the science fiction writers?

551
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:23.440
Did you did you learn a style from them?

552
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.240
Or did you Oh? Yeah, no, I mean I think.

553
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.640
I think, if you're going to write something, the best,

554
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:32.519
the best thing you could do is read a lot. Right,

555
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.119
this is like it's like everything else. And let me

556
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.480
let me give you an example of something that's really amazing.

557
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.920
I mean, for example, you know, Carl Sagan wrote a

558
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:46.119
book called Contact, which I read years ago. And so

559
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.720
Carl Sagan is looking around for a way to do

560
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.720
interstellar travel, right, and so you know, he can't think

561
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:55.039
of like any any viable way to really do it.

562
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:56.680
I mean the kind of stuff that you see on

563
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:02.240
Star Wars and stuff is so so he calls a

564
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:09.279
guy at Caltech, this guy Kip Thorn, and and Kip

565
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.880
Thorn sits back and he thinks about it, and he's

566
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.519
an expert in black holes. So he calls Carl Sagan

567
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:18.279
and he says, you know, there's a thing called a wormholes,

568
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.359
and let me describe it to you. So he describes

569
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.680
this thing to Carl Sagan. Carl Sagan puts it in

570
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.759
a book. Meanwhile, Kip Thorn, who's like this, he's a

571
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:33.839
Nobel Prize winning bitnessist, basically starts thinking about wormholes and

572
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:38.559
gets the entire world interested in wormholes. So now wormholes

573
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.759
are like this big topic of exotic physics, and it

574
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.079
came from Carl Sagan asking this guy like, how do

575
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:48.839
you think I could do it? You know, So there's

576
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.119
a you know, it's the same thing with Star Trek.

577
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.519
I mean, Star Trek's really interesting. I mean it's super

578
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:56.279
interesting because you know, they have this thing called the

579
00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:00.079
warp drive. Right. So so it turns out that there

580
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:06.000
is a physicist in South America, Miguel Kubier, who basically

581
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:08.279
is a big Star Trek fan. And there are a

582
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:11.279
lot of people who, you know, the person who discovered

583
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:15.559
crisper at Berkeley, a woman who discovered crisper at Berkeley

584
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.799
was a big Star Trek fan. So Star Trek actually

585
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.599
inspired a lot of people. So this whole warp drive thing,

586
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.000
Miguel Kubiery actually he was an expert in general relativity.

587
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.480
He comes up with a metric, this thing called a

588
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.599
metric in general relativity that would enable you to do

589
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.599
a warp like a warp bubble, you know. So this

590
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:41.039
is a big topic of research today is like warp bubbles,

591
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.759
you know. So there's a there's a lot of there's

592
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:49.599
a lot of like cross pollination between reality and fiction

593
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:53.640
and specifically science fiction. So I you know, I'm I'm

594
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.240
I was, you know, at some point I was really

595
00:33:56.359 --> 00:34:00.279
motivated to say, Okay, there may be things that I've

596
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.839
imagined that you know, fit into our whole you know,

597
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:09.559
sociology and world thing and you know, psychology and whatnot.

598
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.679
So let's let's let's see let's explore that. Let's see

599
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:16.519
what we can do. Let's see how technology and human

600
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:20.679
nature can sort of you know, cross pollinate each other

601
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.559
to produce something that's interesting for people to read.

602
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.679
Yeah, that's crazy, It's amazing how Sagan actually just kind

603
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.960
of changed everything, you know, with with Cosmos and also

604
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.079
you know his other work as well.

605
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.000
Right, he was an incredible genius.

606
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.320
Oh yeah, so personable as well, which really kind of

607
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:40.599
helps me.

608
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:44.280
Right. Well, you know this this guy, Neil Degrass Dyson,

609
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.719
I don't know if you know this interesting. So he

610
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.800
was a kid in Brooklyn and who became interested in

611
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.559
science and he wrote to Carl Sagan. He wrote to

612
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:59.519
him and said how interesting. Carl Sagan basically invited him

613
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.840
to come to cor now and just look around. And

614
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:05.280
that's how that's how Neel the Grass Dice and became

615
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.559
Neil the grass Dice. And because Earl Sagan was was

616
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:11.719
you know, so generous to him, like you know, basically

617
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:14.440
invited in the corn now and you know, just befriended

618
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:17.639
him and then he became Neil de grass Dice.

619
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:19.719
Wow, I think we all wish we could be friends

620
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:25.280
with Carl Sagan, right, imagine that, mind you. Anyway, let's

621
00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:29.400
get back to proch fascinating stuff. This this conversation, I hope.

622
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.599
But everyone's listening and making sure that that they're taking

623
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.199
everything in right, because I want to now know about

624
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.880
your awards, you know, the Deep Time Awards.

625
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.119
Well, that's what stuff that tell t us about deep time,

626
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:45.480
Deep time, Deep Time. So the impetus for Deep Time was,

627
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.920
you know, we have a lot of things today where

628
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:52.599
we're you know, we're thinking about you know, for instance, well,

629
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:56.639
and it's a hot topic and science fiction is alien contact.

630
00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.239
So something that I hadn't written about, which is alien contact.

631
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.840
So that's sort of like the centerpiece of Deep Time, right,

632
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:11.760
So let's imagine alien contact. And my version of alien

633
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.199
contact is really different from what you see out there

634
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:19.760
in most science fiction. So what I did was I said, okay,

635
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:23.119
let's go four hundred years in the future. Climate change

636
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:28.360
has devastated the Earth, and what's happened is we've gone

637
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:33.280
back to like sort of like a radical version of

638
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:38.079
the Gilded Age. So now basically on Earth, you know,

639
00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:42.679
governments are just proxies for corporations. Corporations just run the world, right.

640
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.440
So you know, used to have like back in the

641
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:51.440
nineteen twenties where you'd work for US Steel or something

642
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:55.199
like that. You'd work for Andrew Carnegie, and what that

643
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.440
meant was he'd put you in like workers housing, so

644
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:03.840
he'd put you in barracks and you'd basically work six hours,

645
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.000
six days a week, fourteen hours a day, you had

646
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.239
kids working, et cetera. So it was sort of like

647
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:15.519
you lived for the company. Right. So in in deep time,

648
00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:21.280
basically in the future, we have our coologies because you know,

649
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:26.519
the world is different now, the climate, you have like superstorms,

650
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.719
you have like a lack of fresh water, you have

651
00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:34.159
a lot of stuff. So these corporations basically produce environments

652
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:38.000
where people can just you know, live and not be

653
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.280
subject to you know, to the world as it is.

654
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.079
And one of the things that happens when you when

655
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.519
you're when you belong to this company and you have

656
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:53.719
these like multi generational contracts. So if you're if your

657
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.840
dad works for the company and somehow he gets killed,

658
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.599
or your mother's working for the company or she gets killed,

659
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:05.440
you basically take up their contract no choice to buy,

660
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.760
no choice, and to buy your way out of this

661
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.079
contract is almost impossible because they do it just like

662
00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:14.400
Andrew Carnegie. You you make enough money to live, but

663
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.800
you don't make enough money to save to buy out,

664
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.599
to buy yourself out of the contract. So what happens

665
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.239
in Deep Time? This is really interesting what happens in

666
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.199
Deep Times. It's the main character is A is A

667
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:31.199
is a woman and you you get to know her

668
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.760
as like a little girl. When she's thirteen years old,

669
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:37.000
her dad gets killed working for the company, and so

670
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:40.679
the company men show up and they basically are going

671
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.360
to take take the girls. She's going to take the contract.

672
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:46.599
You know. The mother is like, you know, kind of

673
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:51.000
like freaking out and just you know, but yeah, they

674
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.119
end up they end up taking the girl. And when

675
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:56.800
the company takes you, what they do is they they

676
00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:59.840
put you through a bunch of tests to figure out, well,

677
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.159
how can you best serve the company? Right? What do

678
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:03.000
you what are you good at?

679
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:03.400
You know.

680
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:06.159
So it turns out that she's they put her in

681
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:10.960
the They put her in the company sort of police force.

682
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:15.199
And the company police force is like back in the day,

683
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:18.440
you know, you're working for Andrew Carnegie and you're one

684
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:20.800
of these people who, you know, you start a union

685
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.960
or something like that. Yeah, they don't want that. So

686
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:26.840
what they do is they call the Pinkertons, right, So

687
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.480
the Pinkertons are their police force. Are these guys with

688
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:32.880
like Derby's and you know, machine guns and belly clubs

689
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:34.320
and stuff. And then you just you know, go and

690
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.239
kill a few with these guys, and you know, the

691
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:40.119
strike is over, right. So, so what they do is

692
00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:43.159
they put this girl in the police force, and in

693
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.480
order to do that, they really change her because you

694
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:49.559
know that far into the future. What happens is that

695
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.000
soldiers like you know, they control like military equipment with

696
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:57.039
their minds. So they give her all of these implants

697
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.920
that allow her to like, you know, control this equipment

698
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:07.599
and and their first their first mission, their first police

699
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:13.519
mission is on Mars because the locals, who basically are

700
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:15.519
the laborers, you know, all the guys in charge are

701
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:19.320
like Earth people from the corporation, but the locals are

702
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.639
the guys who you know, do all the heavy lifting. Well,

703
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.119
they've taken over this particular plant on Mars, so now

704
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:28.639
the police force is going to come come out and

705
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:33.119
take it back, right, So she, you know, and she

706
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.760
she's she's got like a tremendous amount of internal struggle

707
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.480
because on the one hand, for reasons you'll find out,

708
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:45.000
what you know when you read the book, is she

709
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:47.280
doesn't she didn't really want to be part of this,

710
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:49.880
and what they did to her mother and the way

711
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.519
they left them and stuff. There's a lot of anger

712
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:57.079
and animosity and regret. However, they change her, and they,

713
00:40:57.159 --> 00:40:59.320
you know, like they she goes to the space station,

714
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:01.719
you get this training for how to be a policeman

715
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:06.039
after they change you biologically, and there's a whole bunch

716
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.320
of people like that who are like just young people

717
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:11.800
who were basically the guys who took up their parents' contract.

718
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.519
So they go to Mars in this police action and

719
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.679
it changes she, you know, because she retains some part

720
00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:24.679
of who she was. She realizes, you know, she's become

721
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.320
the people she hate. She hates, you know, she's become

722
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:30.920
one of them. Right, And there's a thing that really

723
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:34.199
demonstrates this to her. And she's a very good soldier.

724
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:36.800
I mean, she's very very fact she's really good at

725
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:39.880
what she does. So like just like when you're like

726
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.920
a Roman soldier and you go sideways, what do the

727
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.920
Romans do? They put you in the salt mines, right, So,

728
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:52.159
so you know, she she basically turns on her squad

729
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:55.599
in a particular way because they're going to assassinate these people.

730
00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:59.000
She's not going to you know, she stands in between

731
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:03.719
them and these people. And so she gets sent to Titan,

732
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:09.719
which is a moon of Saturn, to dig or or

733
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:13.679
like two kilometers in the in the in the in

734
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:17.519
the in the in the methane tundra of Titan, and

735
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:19.480
that's where you meet her. That's the first place where

736
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.320
you actually meet her. And uh, there's this like there's

737
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:26.000
this piece of sabotage that happened. She's in a cave

738
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:29.800
in she's uh, she's glued to the ground because the

739
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.639
heat like melted this methane ice and then you know,

740
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:35.920
knocked her out and when she woke up, she was

741
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:41.159
just encased in this sarcophagus of methane and unbeknownst to her,

742
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.239
she she has this this thing has happened in a

743
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:50.880
place where there's this alien artifact that's been waiting for

744
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:55.920
a long time, and because she's stuck there, it seeps

745
00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:00.519
into her. It seeps into her. So as she as

746
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.400
she gets out of this mess and gradually wakes up,

747
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:07.679
she realizes something has happened to her. She doesn't know

748
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:14.159
what it is, and it leads to a tremendous amount

749
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:19.679
of stuff that happens. So there's and the other thing

750
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:24.280
that happens in Deep Dying is that, of course the company,

751
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.239
the company learns and there's as it's a it's an

752
00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:31.360
America and England type of thing again. So you got Earth,

753
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:35.119
but then you have a civilization that's you know, sort

754
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:40.679
of like a democratic commonwealth that's starting to form on Saturn,

755
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.199
and it's far enough away so the Earth can't really

756
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.800
control it. And it's so attractive to people on Earth

757
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:49.639
that if they can get off of Earth and come

758
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.360
to the Commonwealth, they get the best and brightest. So

759
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.599
these guys are getting they're getting stronger and stronger because

760
00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:58.960
it's really attractive to go there, and the Company doesn't

761
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:02.119
like it. The companies East that like in the future,

762
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.760
if these guys become powerful, they're gonna, you know, they're

763
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:10.079
gonna they're gonna be contesting the domination of the company.

764
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:13.800
So the company learns about this alien artifact, right, and

765
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:17.480
so what they do is they come with warships and

766
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.119
they they do the imminent domain, like we're just gonna

767
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:25.639
take this over, and the people on Saturn oppose them.

768
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:28.320
So there's this huge conflict and in the middle of

769
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:34.599
this there's this alien. Now the alien is like a

770
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.800
million years ahead of people, a billion years ahead of people,

771
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:43.079
and its intentions are not known to you, but it

772
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.480
basically it it what it wants to do is make

773
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:51.320
communication with people through this girl. That's why. That's why

774
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:55.159
it seeped into her and rebuilt her implants so that

775
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:59.960
they could talk. So it's a it's it's an interesting situation.

776
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:04.119
It's my version of and don't Forget. If you'd like

777
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.440
to hear more interviews with writers about the ideas behind

778
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:11.000
their books, you can subscribe to Author Conversations with Me

779
00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:15.440
Chris Dabs wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah yeah, well yeah,

780
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:19.400
I mean that sounds again amazing, Peter, Why do you

781
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.960
keep doing this to me all these books?

782
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.079
I hope you enjoy them, you know, I mean, if

783
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:27.519
you like to read, I hope you enjoy them totally.

784
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.000
I mean it sounds brilliant. I'm sure our this is

785
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:35.639
a viewers will be thinking the same thing. Wow, mind blowing.

786
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:39.199
Really Okay, well, let's let's go back and talk about

787
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.559
the end of the world very briefly. I mean, we're

788
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:44.280
coming towards the end of our time. Unfortunately, it's always

789
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:47.800
the way I tell you. But you're looking at audio

790
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:49.679
books now, right, So you've made the End of the

791
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:52.639
World into an audiobook. But what made you do that?

792
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.840
You know? And so that's the one that you're giving

793
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:55.800
away for free, right.

794
00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.199
Yeah, if you have if you like, I say, if

795
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:01.800
you have a Spotify account and listen to it for free,

796
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:04.159
so you take a break from the music. See if

797
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.800
you like the End of the World. The reason I

798
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:08.960
did it was, you know, there are a lot of

799
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:14.119
people like for instance me, I still work as a scientist.

800
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.239
So you know, what do you do? You know, you're

801
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:20.719
you're looking at that screen, you know, six seven, eight, nine,

802
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:25.559
ten hours a day, right or or sometimes you know

803
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:27.800
you'll be traveling in your car or something like that.

804
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:30.079
So at the end of the day. After looking at

805
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:33.840
that screen, it's just hard to actually read, excuse me,

806
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:37.440
a print book. But you might still want to, you know,

807
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:39.639
you still might want to get into a good story.

808
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:43.800
So the you know, the audiobook is a low hanging group, right.

809
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.800
You can listen to it in your car, you can

810
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:47.760
listen to it in the evening if your eyes are

811
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:51.000
tired whatever. And I thought it would be like a

812
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:55.000
great way of trying to introduce what I'm trying to

813
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:58.400
do in science fiction, you know, to people who you

814
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:02.280
know don't particularly you have time to read it, or

815
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:04.679
who you know in the evening just you know, they

816
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.920
got tired eyes. So it was you know, it was

817
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:10.079
sort of you know, they answer your question low hanging

818
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:11.840
through to try and reduce my stuff.

819
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.639
Yeah, but I mean totally things are going that way, right.

820
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:19.920
We're time poor and so trying to multitask is probably

821
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:21.960
where we're at. You know, someone asked me a few

822
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:23.840
years ago when the last time I read a book was,

823
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:27.199
and it was a few years ago probably, I said

824
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.320
ten years. I haven't had the chance, you know what

825
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.880
I mean. But coaching up with that now, but I mean, yeah,

826
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:36.159
it really was a bit embarrassing. But I haven't had

827
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:37.400
the chance, as you say, to sit there with a

828
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.079
print book. But e readers, now, you know, they helped

829
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:41.880
because you can just go in and grab stuff.

830
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.000
And yeah, by the way, all of these books are

831
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:44.800
on e readers too.

832
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:48.559
Yeah, great, let's see that's fantastic as well. Honestly, so

833
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:52.679
when readers finished Proteus Rising, Okay, let's do this, what

834
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.480
do you hope stays with them? What do what do

835
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:56.280
you hope they learn?

836
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:03.400
What I hope they learn is that and it's sort

837
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:07.760
of like the same the same lesson that was in

838
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:10.679
all it's quite on the Western front, and some of

839
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:14.920
the stuff that we're experiencing as we speak is that

840
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:21.960
is that you know, it's like the Twelfth Step program. Okay,

841
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.719
so really the thing about Proteus Rising, it's like the

842
00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:29.519
Twelfth Step program. You know, if you look at history, right,

843
00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:34.760
human history, it really is sort of a nightmare of

844
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:39.239
like just constant war. Yeah, I mean, constant war, just

845
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.760
constant you know, I think I think we have like

846
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:48.559
maybe one hundred year period where Rome is in charge

847
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.039
of most of the world, and we call it the

848
00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:56.239
Pox Romana because you know, I mean, it's like it's

849
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:59.920
like time out for like war. So the thing, the thing,

850
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:02.840
the thing about it is that, you know, let's just

851
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.239
face it, we are predators, you know, We're like, we're

852
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:12.079
like wolf packs with big heads. And so the thing

853
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.480
about Proteus Rising was it's just like in the you know,

854
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.800
it's quite on the Western Front, when the boy comes

855
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:21.400
back from French warfare in the First World War and

856
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.159
he goes back to he goes back to his little

857
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.880
town in Germany and he goes to the park and

858
00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:30.199
there's these old men sitting there and they're talking about

859
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.119
the war strategy, and they're pushing these beer monks around.

860
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.199
And the guy's a soldier and he's standing there and

861
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:37.960
he says to this old man, he says, you know,

862
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:41.159
every time you push like one of those beer monks,

863
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:43.440
it's ten thousand of my friends.

864
00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:45.280
Yeah.

865
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:50.000
So the idea of Proteus Rising was, you know, how

866
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.199
do you you know? And this was like, you know,

867
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.079
a as a young man is really into science and

868
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:59.039
whatnot and thinking about aliens. How impossible it is to

869
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.079
go from start the start, So what would you ask

870
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:05.079
an alien? What would you ask an alien? You know,

871
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:07.760
I want to know the nature of space time, or

872
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:10.480
I want to understand. Those are not the questions i'd

873
00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:13.880
ask anymore. The question i'd ask an alien is, you know,

874
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.239
in order to come from one start to the next,

875
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.480
the amount of power that you have to be in

876
00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:24.920
charge of is unimaginable to people. And you know, we

877
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:28.320
have like, you know, these little things like atomic bombs,

878
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:31.960
and we're always like one step away from self annihilation.

879
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:35.639
So i'd ask them, you know, I'm presuming you came

880
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:38.280
from like the same evolution we came from. You know,

881
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:40.840
so you got to go through this sort of gauntlet

882
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:43.920
of nature that beats the crap out of you. And

883
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:46.559
you know you're a predator, and so you get this

884
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:50.000
thing where you get angry. Somebody else has got your

885
00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:53.519
their your territory, somebody else has got stuff that belongs

886
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:56.639
to you. You want their resources, you want their women.

887
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.360
You know, you want something right, and so you're always

888
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:03.079
like so. So in the in the twelve step program,

889
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:07.480
the first step is understand you've got a problem. If

890
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:12.000
things keep happening over and over again. It's not by accident, right,

891
00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:16.400
it's a feature. So the whole idea of Proteus Rising

892
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:19.239
is how do you get rid of that feature? And

893
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:21.800
this is exactly what I'd ask the aliens, how did

894
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.679
you you know, presumably you came from where we came from,

895
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.760
how did you how did you get to the other

896
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:27.360
side of that?

897
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:31.880
You know, which is yeah, exactly. So there's one way,

898
00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:33.920
isn't it that we look, We've looked at that through

899
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:37.039
the Drake equation, haven't we. I think when when you

900
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:38.960
go through the whole equation and it works on how

901
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:44.239
many civilizations have lasted through you know, self annihilation and

902
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:45.360
things like that.

903
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.920
That's one that's one factor.

904
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:49.800
That's right, Yeah, yeah, exactly, So you know that's quite amazing.

905
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:51.960
And then the power You're absolutely right. I can just

906
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.480
about get my head around the idea of like a

907
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:57.119
Dyson sphere. Yeah you know.

908
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:00.559
Yeah, I mean you know, I mean, you know, going

909
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.639
from star to star, right, given our technology and we

910
00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:07.679
you know, i mean we have a pretty pretty decent technology,

911
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:12.679
it's virtually impossible. It's virtually impossible. So when you see

912
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:16.679
stuff like star Trek and whatnot, that's like, I'm not

913
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:21.400
saying that it is completely impossible, but anybody who could

914
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:26.000
do anything even approaching that would be godlike I mean,

915
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:31.320
you know, small g and so yeah, you know, that's uh,

916
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:33.719
you know, and and so if it is true, like

917
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:36.559
you you know that Harry Reid, who is a senator

918
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:41.199
from Nevada, instituted this thing. You know, like are there

919
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:45.039
you know, do we have do we know that there

920
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.400
really are aliens? You know, you get all these reports

921
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:51.960
of UFOs and stuff like that, and you know, the

922
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:56.360
the the idea that somebody has actually done that, that

923
00:52:56.480 --> 00:53:00.639
somebody has actually come here is so fantas. You know,

924
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:06.079
people don't they don't realize how fantastic that proposition is.

925
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:09.559
If it were true, If it were true, it would

926
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:13.960
be like an order of reality that we have never experienced.

927
00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:18.840
And if somebody did come here. You know, there was

928
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.880
a physicist I actually knew people who knew this guy.

929
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.119
His name was Frank Tipler. He was a Berkeley and

930
00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:28.719
he wrote an article in nineteen eighty one. I think

931
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:32.360
it wasn't physics to day. They basically said, look, you know,

932
00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:38.400
if there was a very advanced civilization that had been

933
00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:43.039
able to construct spacecraft that could do for example, ten

934
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:46.159
percent of speed of life, and they had these von

935
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:51.079
Neumann type AI machines and von Neuman machine means, you

936
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:54.199
have these probes and they go to a solar system,

937
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:59.199
and then they start mining asteroids and moons, they reproduce themselves,

938
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:02.360
and they sent that other probes. So it's geometric, right.

939
00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:08.400
He calculated that within one hundred million years, you could

940
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:13.679
literally colonize the entire galaxy. So if if it were

941
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:17.079
true that there were these you know, UFOs or whatever,

942
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.880
basically what that would really mean is there has been

943
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:24.840
something that's been parked in our solar system for a

944
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:29.079
really long time, and these things that you're seeing are

945
00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:32.440
basically just romans. You know, they're doing some sort of

946
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:37.480
an anthropological survey that has lasted thousands of years. So,

947
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:41.559
I mean, the whole idea of UFOs it you know,

948
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:45.480
when somebody goes, well it's nationality, No, it's not national security.

949
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.159
You know, anybody who can come here, they can do

950
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:53.239
anything they want. It's not national security. And like, you know,

951
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:55.719
they interviewed one of these pilots that said, you know,

952
00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:58.719
this is like a woman who was a lieutenant commander

953
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:03.119
flying off a an aircraft carrier in f eighteen and

954
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:06.440
her description of what she saw was just you know, yeah,

955
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:10.000
this isn't from China or Russia. And then they asked

956
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:13.360
her they said, well, you know, if you if it was,

957
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:15.599
if it was a threat, could you have done something

958
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:19.679
about it? And she said their plane was a lot better.

959
00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:24.880
Than funny that, Yeah, it's just it is mind blowing, actually,

960
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.760
isn't it. And I think that that was another thing

961
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:29.199
that I think Sagan was talking about, wasn't it how

962
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:31.280
you know, would we even recognize it, or would they

963
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.079
recognize us, or would they date to talk to us?

964
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:34.079
In all these things?

965
00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:37.519
But again, this is exactly what happens in deep time.

966
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:40.880
Is that the reason that this thing has inhabited this

967
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:46.000
girl is because it can't talk to us. So what

968
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:47.719
it has to do is it has to get an

969
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:53.639
intermediary that, you know, sort of like a translator between

970
00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:57.960
it and us. And what comes out of that translation is,

971
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:02.159
you know, it's it's different than most of the AIS,

972
00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:05.119
I mean, most of the alien context stuff.

973
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.000
Yeah. Sure, well, Peter, listen, we need to start wrapping

974
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:10.840
it up. I've got one last question for you. Okay,

975
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:14.920
here we go. So, if humanity really were starting again

976
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:18.119
on another world, Okay, what do you think that we

977
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.920
should do differently the second time around?

978
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.039
Well that's going to get me in trouble. Oh okay,

979
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:29.800
me big trouble. But let's put it this way. If

980
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:33.360
we go to Mars, I hope Elon Musk is not

981
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:38.480
in charge.

982
00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:41.599
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think that's quite

983
00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:45.199
a pithy way to end this. Actually, visa, I think that, Yeah,

984
00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:47.360
I understand what you mean. So if we did go

985
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:49.840
to Mars, it would be really tricky, wouldn't it to

986
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:52.920
make sure that we that we had the right people

987
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:55.960
making the right decisions before we went to Mars.

988
00:56:56.360 --> 00:56:59.000
You know, I used to think, I used to think,

989
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:01.679
and it's because I grew up and what we used

990
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.559
to call the space age, you know, you know, you

991
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:07.480
got these guys like John Glenn, who was I think

992
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:11.800
one of the best people ever. These are really good people,

993
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:14.320
and I thought, you know, the people who would do

994
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:16.639
this kind of thing would be these sort of like

995
00:57:18.119 --> 00:57:24.519
you know, very human oriented people with senses of wonder

996
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:28.320
and the idea that we could start over again and

997
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:36.079
not make like the same mistakes. But seeing what's happening today, unfortunately,

998
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:38.159
it seems to be going and you know, like we say,

999
00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:42.559
like nothing in history ever changes except for the prompts,

1000
00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:45.239
and it seems like we're doing it again.

1001
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:49.800
You know. Yeah, Well, That's a whole other issue, isn't it.

1002
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:53.280
You know, were we back then not naive, but because

1003
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.440
we weren't able to access all of the information that

1004
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.800
we're able to now and we're constantly inundated with news,

1005
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:03.679
you know, were were those people the people that we

1006
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:04.800
hope they are they were?

1007
00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:07.920
Yeah, that's that's a great question, that that that is

1008
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:10.800
exactly right. You know, you know, you never know, and

1009
00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:14.920
you basically hope, and you know, all I can say is,

1010
00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:18.039
you know, I think I think that you know, the

1011
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:22.360
thing about space travel that you human space travel. For instance,

1012
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:24.480
buzz altern goes to you know, I don't know if

1013
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:27.440
you've read that thing by buzz Aldron that coming back

1014
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:30.159
to Earth. But these guys that go to the moon

1015
00:58:30.199 --> 00:58:32.559
and do these kinds of things, they look down at

1016
00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:35.159
the Earth and the thing that happens is their entire

1017
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.239
perspective changes when you realize that we're all sitting on

1018
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:43.920
this ball with you know, and you know, like this

1019
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:48.280
this infinite darkness in every direction right and the only

1020
00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:51.880
thing keeping us alive is this like man, then little

1021
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:58.960
you know, fuzzy atmosphere. You know, you realize, look, man,

1022
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:03.559
Carl Sagan says, no, nobody's coming to rescue us, you know,

1023
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.000
I mean we we you know. The nice thing about

1024
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:10.280
human space travel is it puts it puts our situation

1025
00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:15.280
in perspective. And I think when reasonable people see that,

1026
00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:19.199
it really changes their idea of how we should be

1027
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:20.000
getting along with that.

1028
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:22.400
Here, m I think you hit the hit the nail

1029
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.559
on the head there, reasonable people. I think that that's

1030
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:31.119
the thing. And yeah, fascinating Peter, Peter Dingers. We have

1031
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:33.760
run out of time. I'm really so sorry because we

1032
00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:37.320
definitely could talk for hours on this right, so thank

1033
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:40.000
you for talking to us about Protest Rising Deep time.

1034
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:42.679
Sorry most deep time, wasn't it? Yes time.

1035
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:46.079
Yeah, And there's there's one other book in anthology which

1036
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:50.320
is actually really good. It's called The World's in Transition.

1037
00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:54.039
So if you if you, if you like short stories

1038
00:59:54.239 --> 01:00:00.559
or short novellas, yeah, that some really good stories, brilliant.

1039
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:02.679
Well we'll put that into the links and the description

1040
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:04.119
as well, so everyone can have a look for that,

1041
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:05.679
so make sure you check out them below.

1042
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:11.599
And there's a website, uh Speculative Fiction Review, which basically

1043
01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:13.880
the other thing I should say is all of these

1044
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:19.159
books are available on Amazon, but they're also available through Ingram,

1045
01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:23.800
so they're available in bookstores. You can you can send

1046
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:27.079
to Ingram for them, you can order them in bookstores

1047
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:28.400
all over the world.

1048
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:32.159
Brilliant, brilliant. Well we'll put that in there as well.

1049
01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:35.800
So I think everyone will be, you know, listening to this.

1050
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:37.639
I think they've got this far, they're going to be

1051
01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:40.760
pretty interested right in what you've got to say, So listen.

1052
01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:43.519
Thank you, Peter Dingis, thank you very very much for

1053
01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:44.599
joining us. I've got to.

1054
01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.119
Say I've enjoyed the conversation. Chris No, thank you.

1055
01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:50.039
Same here. So the books we've been talking about the

1056
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:53.440
end of the world, Deep Types, and obviously all of

1057
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:55.039
the rest of the books that you've mentioned, which is

1058
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:58.840
so exciting. But you proteas, you can find all the

1059
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.079
links in the description to each one of those books. Now,

1060
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:05.599
if you enjoyed our conversation, then please follow or subscribe

1061
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.840
to Author Conversations for more interviews with writers like Peter,

1062
01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:12.440
where we explore the ideas behind their books, not just

1063
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:14.800
how did you write that book? You know the mechanics,

1064
01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:18.000
but we're talking about all the thoughts behind it. So,

1065
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:21.440
Peter Dingers, thank you once again for joining me on

1066
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:24.039
Author conversations and I hope you have a great time.

1067
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:27.760
Thank you, bye bye.

1068
01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:33.199
If you enjoyed this conversation, you can watch more author

1069
01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:36.559
conversations here and don't Forget. If you'd like to hear

1070
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:40.280
more interviews with writers about the ideas behind their books,

1071
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:44.079
you can subscribe to Author Conversations with me Chris Dabs

1072
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:46.199
wherever you get your podcasts.